Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Hi Guys,
As per the title, I picked some of this up from the Autosport show and have been doing a little testing with it on my own car and have to say it seems to do exactly what it says on the tin.

I am looking forward to trying it out on a more serious application as the M5's active management fights my attempts to make it knock so will be trying it on a big power Lancer 9 running Motec later this week, but industry reports have been very good and we even have David Rowe singing its praises lately along with other serious industry tuners like Peter Knight so I thought I would ask on here and see if anyone has any personal experience with it as we have such a great cross section of users and respected tuners that it is likely I could get some real world feedback from some of you guys on here before I look at signing the deal to become an official distributor.

For those of you whom don't know what it is, it is a detonation suppressant that almost eliminates a pump fuels ability to detonate under extreme compression or due to heat, but it does so without changing its octane and is also transparent to fuel tests making it ideal for Motorsport use where standard fuel is required. This means you can wind up teh timing where the fuels detonation properties had previously limited you, run higher compressions both dynamic or static and lean out mixtures where you only ran rich to supress heat induced detonation/pre ignition.

Its a very interesting product indeed and I thought you guys running knock links etc may well have tried it?

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

Is it expensive?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Not really mate, works out at £15 a can and will treat around 30 litres of fuel. Compared to race fuel and engine repair bills its for nothing!

KSA-Cossie

iTrader: (4)

MSD gonna be selling it if it does work stu ?

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

Not bad then i guess!

SHame the product name is wank


well done sherlock, was it the bit about "maybe becoming an official distributor" that gave it away?

Roosie

iTrader: (8)

This is the stuff that is used when mapping a lot of the stock hatch engines in our championship as our saxos are running so much advanced on stock engines 90 percent of vtrs are running 130bhp and are mapped by the same person

KSA-Cossie

iTrader: (4)

well done sherlock, was it the bit about "maybe becoming an official distributor" that gave it away? [/quote]

Missed that bit rectum inspector

Little-AL

Going to use it on Specky's Tigra this year instead of race fuel like had been considered... Have heard some good things and like Stu pointed out, Dave Rowe has been singing its praises!
And having seen his work I would trust anything he says is worth the money!!

saph4be

who is david rowe

TWoods

Used power pour on a few classic race cars where the mechanical injection has a very narrow operating window and small swing on the dizzy ends up from barely running to det somewhere. WIth timing advanced I can only optimise the fueling for 2/3 rev range typically. Power pour allows me to optimise the timing for best power in upper rev range with less det everywhere on mechanical injection which is very crude in adjustment. Apart from that doubt it makes more power but it allows safe timing advance even if there is no more power to be had.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Dont spill it on your paintwork as it is a very good paint stripper !

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Thanks for your input so far. Bttt

cabrio zo

I have nothing to add except was chatting to the guys at Autosport too and was interested to hear about the product

Z

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Not used that particular one personally yet, but I do know some people who do run it.
A good friend of mine (trevor langfield for those people into nitrous) has some customers running very quick bikes (8s and faster on the quarter, the fat boys for example) who use Power Pour with good results.



The octane rating (RON - Research Octane Number) of a fuel, is a measure of its ability to resist deontation on a percentage scale relative to iso-octane.

So Im a little confused about the statement with regards to

I dont see how that can be the case if its truely surpressing detonation, as by definition if you change a fuels ability to resist detonation then you change its octane rating (ie its ability to resist detonation)

So can you perhaps give a bit more information Stu about what you mean about not changing the octane?

TBH for a road car, I see no additive that works better than Toluene if you can get hold of it, which admitedly is a bit harder these days because of TNT not being considered a good thing for people to be able to knock up at home anymore
So until my supplies of that run out, ive got no reason to look elsewhere really, hence having not tried power pour myself yet.




If you want an independant 3rd party evaluation though, ive got a few (relatively high boost) turbo cars on the rollers im mapping in a couple of weeks so if you want to send me a few bottles down, im happy to pour one in each at the end of the mapping session on normal fuel and then get a no nonsense result for:
Does it gain any power without ignition advance (ie will it help people who arent remapping)
Does it gain any power with ignition advance (ie will it help people who have the ability to run more advanced with it)

Let me know if thats of any use to you, i'd be happy to help as its interesting stuff at the end of the day, none of us should be just accepting that the fuel we get supplied cant be modified to work better, hence Ive used things like toluene myself.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Thats a good offer chip, I think everyone would be very interested in a back to back experiment.

Stu,
just be aware that shipping this out to customers may have issues as the contents are highly flamable.
Some couriers wont allow it or will expect specialist packaging and labelling !

RSTsteve

Some people call him Mr Motec

Very well known mapper on the motec units

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ive nothing to gain or lose by doing so personally, and Im always totally straight about things, so it seems a good offer to me too, as people will know if I say it works, then it does, and vice versa.
And I will of course give full details of exactly what I have done, how many degrees advance on the test case and what power before, and likewise after.

I'll test it at the point of peak power, as then its only a couple of cells that need altering, to keep it as simple as possible, whilst being as fair a test as possible too.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Your on chipper. Pm me the best address to send it to.

Reference the octane, I agree, but am told by its manufacturer that it doesn't. It is all a little cloak and dagger but given we are talking about easily replicated chemicals that isn't surprising of course. Thats why I am looking for personal testimonies.

Simon, its not flammable.

RickyLee53

Surely your not going to alter the timing just at peak power? It'd be easier to add a "global" Xdegrees preferable as a percentage, safer and more accurate IMO

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I dont map cars globally when looking for MABT, I map them cell by cell. (well, kind of, obviously you notice trends as you are doing it)

I fail to see how adding more timing globally is safer than adding it at one point, please explain?



PM sent Stu.

leecavturbo

MABT?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

sorry mate, Minimum Advance for Best Torque
also known as MBT

Basically the optimum ignition timing figure for an ecu to be delivering at that point.

turbotoaster

well my big horsepower rotary project would be perfect for this, rotarys knock at very low levels of boost which in turn limited there power alot.

an average rotary no matter what turbo can only run around 1bar of boost without water injection before you risk knock.

Will this product allow most boost to be run, say up to c16 levels of fuel(2bar) or are we looking at primary use for increasing igntion a bit?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

IF it works then yes it would increase the amount of boost or ignition you can run.
Ie if you either keep the ignition the same and run more boost, or you keep the boost the same and run more ignition, or a bit of both.

Normally you can increase boost by retarding the ignition to a certain extent on most applications anyway though of course, but I assume that on the rotary engine you mention here you cant get more boost in by retarding the ignition further as EGT's will then get to unsafe levels or it will become so inefficient it ends up not returning any power gains?

leecavturbo

i know what MBT is just not MABT

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Oh right, well its just two different ways of saying the same thing, like Kilometers or kms etc

dangerousbrian

i need to take my car to get tuned but fueling etc is all over after being took apart. question is would i be able to use this stuff in my car to travel down to prevent damage? or is it only meant for cars that are running almost spot on and its added just in case? thanks

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I would trailer it if I were you, rather than risk it being too far out, additives can help to reduce the risk of det in that situation, but I wouldnt personally risk it if I were you as if its too lean it will still get too hot and melt, no matter what fuel you put in it.

dangerousbrian

thanks for that.. was thinking maybe if i could drive it down i may get a before/after comparison..not worth it as i reckon the fueling is way out one way or the other.

PeterD

Quality sounding stuff, but I've got a question, If you were running a road car tuned beyond the det point would I be right in saying that you would then have to keep using the additive to keep stop the engine from suffering?

Would I not be safer sticking with lower output incase I dont have a bottle of the stuff handy next time I fill up? So would it be better suited to track or race only engines? (Or is that what its being marketed for?)

Not picking holes in it btw, great product!

Pete

simon170

Stu, so when I get the new engine (400ish bhp) in my Focus, running some of this gear might be a good safety measure if I was going for, a top speed run say?

Rs1

iTrader: (1)

To what extent does it supress DET?
Would i be right in saying being able to add more ignition is going to increase pcp's and make it more likly to burst a head gasket/lift the head??
I think it would be more usful using it as a safety..... lets say you have mapped very close to det(on pump fuel) then you could add this stuff knowing youve now got a decent margin of error???

Big Will_

I intend to run it on my engine (when it's up and running).

I'm running 9.5:1 Compression Ratio and intend to run around 2 bar of boost through a combination of M62 supercharger and GT3076R turbocharger.

As such, i'll have to run it at around 3-4% dilution which will mean around 2 cans per fill up to ensure optimum benefits.

However, as i don't plan on doing big mileage in it, i'm prepared to stand the expense as i believe the trade off against power and cost will be well worth it!

turbotoaster

pretty much chip, rotarys dont really need alot of ignition to make power, even less so when they are ported. you dont really gain or loose more from messing with the timing.

since rotarys run so hot retarding the igntion ends up causing some big egt temps(1000c+)

Im not 100% sure on returning power gains, i know a guy running massive amount of water(1600cc) and 34psi of boost on pump fuel running only 2degree of timing at peak torque and hes putting down 700whp so i think more power can be gained by turning it back and increasing boost but without water injection it will still det even with it turned well back


i would imagine it all depends how good this stuff is, if its only as good as say a small bit of water injection theres no point running it on a road car as you may aswell just run water, but if your in a race series and racefuel or water isnt allowed then it seems good stuff.

If it turns you pump fuel into the properties of proper race fuel then its defo worth the pennies for doing trackdays, events etc

stevieturbo

Andy Frost reccommended this to me a couple of times too.

Still never tried it though. Im really not into throwing additives into the tank, which more often than not will just get wasted during normal driving.

So for £15 for 30 litre treatment...thats an extra 50p/l over normal fuel.

So the claims that it slows the burn to allow more advance etc etc.

I just cant help thinking that water/meth injection is a better wat if achieving this ? and cheaper too. Also more efficient in terms of usage, as its only used when its needed.

Rs1

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, i thought one of the downsides to water/meth was that it slowed the burn..... and if ive got it right the power pour additive doesn't???

stevieturbo

Dont see how it would slow the burn that much, but water/meth will obvious cooli9ng benefits everywhere, and more efficient usage
And by sounds of it and a verbal description I was given about Power Pour...it does slow the burn, hence allowing more timing.

Although it does seem to come reccomended by very reputable tuners, so I'm sure they dont say its good without good reason.

http://www.webster-race-engineering.co.uk/powerpour.htm


It would be good to see some independant tests with say SUL + power pour, and SUL and water/meth injection.

james kiely

iTrader: (5)

i agree with you mate ,this would be expensive if you were just tootling about,so would it be possible to inject with when knock is detected in the same way as water injection is ? as i will be running autronic sm4.
or is this simply for track use


cheers james

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If you are on SM4, you can just have a switch to tell the ECU if you have the additive in or not, and if not it will take a few degrees out the timing, problem solved.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

http://www.webster-race-engineering.co.uk/powerpour.htm

Cant really question the credentials of jon webster!
Likewise John Edwards and Peter Knight for that matter

(peter knight built that 1000bhp monaro engine, and Jems did that 1000bhp yb cossie lump)