costina

iTrader: (1)

ANYONE KNOW WHAT BHP GAIN WHEN CHARGE AIR TEMP IS REDUCED?

HAS ANYONE GOT ANY FIGURES?
HAS ANYONE USED CHARGECOOLERS WITH GOOD RESULTS?

ANY INFO WOULD BE HELPFULL

Fiecos Dan

i always believed best ACT on a cossie was 30-40oC, above that your start to loss power,

but most engine dyno runs i've seen run about 15-20oC for the power run.

costina

iTrader: (1)

ON THE ROLLERS CHARGE TEMP WAS 40 oC

ON THE ROAD HAVE SEEN AS LOW AS 8oC

JUST WONDERING WHAT THE POWER GAIN WAS APPROX IF ANY???

Stavros

thats the common myth, but IMO i think its a bit like "wastegate chatter" and other car tuning BS tbh, experience seems to say its not true.

i mean, if thats true, how come cars always feel noticably faster when the weathers fucking freezing and the charge temp is next to fuck all?



UNLESS, and this is summat i jus came up with while typing this, the cold air is more dense which makes the turbo compressor much more efficient (it will), so in turn making the car faster.

i know there are suprisingly huge performance gains from substantialy cooling the air in the compressor as ive seen detailed testing of pre-compressor water injection to achive the same results.
effictivley moves the compressor map along, makes the turbo miles more efficient.

oh, and regarding chargecoolers, they brilliant IF they and the water rad is big enough, thing is they normally way too small.

PWR chargecoolers are the tits, id run one rather than a big intercooler if poss...
http://www.pwr.com.au/pwr/index.asp

Karl

If other engine factors remain constant every 10DegC rise in ACT gives a loss of 3%power.

The ideal inlet temp of 40DegC is not actually a myth, this is indeed the best compromise of fuel atomisation against power and has been proven by OE car manufacturers.

HOWEVER in turbo installations I disagree with this condition and find coldest is always best. The reason for this is because the extra volume of air flow causes a more turbulant flow aiding fuel distribution and atomisation.

On my own car I now run 4 intercoolers and a large charge cooler and it makes a BIG difference!!

Stavros

Good info

So literally there no such thing as too cold (within reason!) like I thought?


4x 2wd's welded together, but what chargecooler? Pace one is pretty small, thought might be restrictive at mega power, so guess prob not that.

Pics!

twitchyrear

ive changed my 500 cooler for a jap one just got to get it to fit ,ive just purchased the erl 2d water injection mf2 kit and will be fitting this too.so with the changes carried out it will be going to the rollers again when i bring her out.it was dyno'd at 396( cant remember if charge temps were on the print out)a month before i hibernated her so im hoping to see a slight increase with these cooling mods when its at the rollers for a set up in april.

Stavros

TBH mate the rollers is a poo place to see any differences cause there fuck al l airflow compared to out on the road anyhow.

Sounds like some good mods tho

twitchyrear

hopefully ill see a difference on the road then steve??

Karl

Charge coolers are actually far less restrictive for charge airflow (i.e. pressure drop) than an intercooler because as a rule they have a large x-sectional area yet a relatively narrow core, whereas an intercooler usually has a smaller crosss sectional area and long core.

I have fabricated my own charge cooler that fits onto the outlet of the interooler before the throttle body and helps control charge temps when at low vehicle speed. At high speed the IC is more than man enough, so essentially my charge cooler takes car of charge cooling for launching and the IC controls high speed usage.

twitchyrear

whats the best way of using the water from the water inj kit??direct into inlet pipe or srayed over the cooler??i was thinking of plumbing mine direct into my intercooler to throttle body piping. alloy pipe(not a samco)

Stavros

Sprayed into the intercooler will do fuck all, youd be better off doing a big poo on the back seat o lower charge temps than doing that.

The most effective place in theory is directly after the compressor outlet of the turbo.

BUT as you have an intercooler it will lower the efficiency of the Intercooler slightly, so dont bother, let the intercooler do the first bit of cooling.

Fit it on the outlet of the intercooler.

My SX, once i get round to fitting it, will have the water injection jets in 3 different places actually.

twitchyrear

when you say outlet of the intercooler do you mean on the 3" outlet pipe on the cooler??would there be much difference mounting it about 6 inch back towards the throttle body?? should be an easy mod to carry out though

Stavros

Better having it as far away from the throttle as poss mate, gives it more time to evaporate into the boosted air, so literally on the intercooler outlet if you can.

twitchyrear

cheers steve,massive help.ill do it like that then

Fiecos Dan

But also matters on the act compensator in the ecu mate, as if the car not mapped right, and leaning off to a 12.6, you will notice say 15-20 bhp to the norm of 11.8:1.


It was Harvey who told me that about 3 years ago (about 40oC on a cossie)


So Why is it the norm to have water inj come on @ 38-43oC ACT? why not 20oC?





i have always put my water inj on the just after the intercooler, as you mention,

Never heard of straight after the turbo,

costina

iTrader: (1)

GOOD INFO GUYS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!!!!!!
GOING TO FIT ESCORT COS INTERCOOLER(BIG TURBO)AND FIT SEPARATE PUMP AND RAD AS I HAVE LIMITED ROOM, AND DON'T WANT TO CHANGE APPEARENCE OF THE FRONT OF CAR !!!!
HOPEFULLY THIS WILL BE A BETTER SOLUTION TO KEEP TEMPS DOWN!!!!

THINKING MORE OF SUMMER WHEN ITS DRY.MORE TRACTION MORE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!HIGH TEMPS LESS RESPONSE =LESS FUN!!

Redkop

That's the set up I have on my Esc Cos now.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Is it any better? do you have a charge temp gauge?if so is the temp drop
a lot ? better performance etc?

cheers
Paul

Stavros

2 reasons i can think of, both probably true.

People believe that 40deg is best BS myth (they do) even tho surely they mustve felt how much better the car goes when its freezing outside.

And ABOVE 40deg is particularly bad, and if you had it set to 20 itd be on all the time as most coolers (RS500 ones especially) have a harsd time keeping temps at 40deg, never mind 20.
Theyd need huge water inj tanks the size of the fuel talks like the old GrpA Volvo 240turbos used.


Well in theory thats the place to make the water most effective as it gives it the most time to do its job.

WELL actually the most effective is pre-compressor so the air never gets heated so much in the first place, increasing the efficiency of the turbo, but you cant inject more than a v.small amount pre-comp or it will erode the compressor wheel over time.

twitchyrear

i could power 2 atomiser jets,could i put 1 either side of the cooler on the outlet pipes,so cooling the air on the way in and out of the cooler??or is that overkill?

Billabong

That figure is not charge air temp' - it's ambiant air temp of the dyno' cell.

Redkop

Yeah the SECs monitor gives me a read out. On a hot day out on track - charge temp is about 30. Normal driving - it's much lower and as low as 8 or 9 during cold weather. I have a Pace charge cooler and it's controlled by a switch.

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

the ambient air temp sensor is the very item that some dyno operators move close to a warm location on the engine (warmer than dyno room temp) to make the dyno produce dodgy higher figures.

Stavros

could, but bit pointless.

like said, putting it before lessens the effectivness of the intercooler. just put it directly afterwards, and change the jet size to suit your needs (ie how much more you want the charge temp to drop)

evergreen72

i must be misreading this, wouldnt fitting water injection after a turbo lead to condensation in the intercooler, over time ending up with an intercooler full of water?

Stavros

Why would it stay in the intercooler, and not just carry on into the engine like the air does?

Is tiny droplets of water that heavy and sticky that highly pressurised air moving at nigh on supersonic speed cant make it move?




Either way, id use it after the intercooler.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Thats good news hopefully it will work well 4 me

cossie4i+

iTrader: (15)

Hi Paul,

How you keeping mate ?

This all for the MK3 Tina or have you got a new toy ?

Steve.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Hi steve yes u r right same old toy

doing fine cheers

Was told charge temps too high on rollers trying to lower them time allowing

foreigneRS

they probably were on the rollers, cos there's bugger all airflow, but what are they like on the road/track?

costina

iTrader: (1)

Can see as low as 8oC but around 28oC is about the norm using a saff 4x4 intercooler!(can't fit bigger no room

cossie4i+

iTrader: (15)

Come on i had a RS500 cooler in my MK5.

Try harder

Steve.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Less room in a mk 3 steve!
i'm also using cos rad and fans !!don't want to mod the front valance!
any way got a ecs cos charge/cooler 4 30 notes

Paul

cossie4i+

iTrader: (15)

I did mod the front valance on mine

What boost and injectors you running now ?

Still have that moded prop as well

Steve.

Steven_RW

My thoughts on the subject:

The water injection doesnt kick in at lower temps as it is a trade off. Adding water itself does not increase power. So if you already have low temps adding water will just put out the fire thus reducing power. Its only required to contain the level of power loss by stopping the temp getting any higher.

Colder is better on turbo cars. I have seen temps on some cars of less than ten degrees when run up at AVA and they have made very good bhp for the level of boost/mods. I think it was circa 210 wheels on a 1.6 rst running 12 psi with super cold intake due to awesome intercooler.

I used to run a massive chargecooler and it can work, however the hassle of all the water, pipes, radiators etc and the weight of carrying masses of water meant than any benefits from the specific latent heat of water being higher than air was traded off.

I would also run the best most efficient intercooler I could for whatever power I ran as long as it wasn't so massive as to cause lag. If your intercooler is up to the job then its such a hassle free life. No pumps to fail or leaks to spring etc.

I always want a car that runs no more than 30 degree inlet temp after tge intercooler. Seems to be a happy compromise. I wouldnt be that interested in water injection as it is again more things to go wrong, needs water all the time when in full use and is just there 99% of the time to make up for not having a good enough intercooler.

Cheers
RW

EIL132

Treetop, aka Andy Forrester runs a chargecooler. Quite a trick one

Stavros

In what way makes it trick?

EIL132

It isn't one you can buy. Home made as it were. You should know having seen it.

Stavros

Ive never seen andys car in the flesh in my life mate