Autronic "Changed the title" Makes Great reading l
03-10-2005, 07:04 PM
#41
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I don't hate it! I'm just jealous he got such quality kit so cheap!!!!
yeah the thing about karl was uncalled for his car does 191 WITHOUT nitrous oxide what is pretty awesome is that prehaps the fastest non nitrous 2wd cossie timed.
03-10-2005, 07:12 PM
#42
chip-3door,
reactionary technology
reactionary technology
If it helps to get my translation of TFC:
Transient Fuel correction is a part of the control software that we use to compensate for manifold air and fuel puddle dynamic problems that are commonly associated, or indeed caused, by the use of large nozzle injectors. These algorythms allow us a degree of success in maintaining the target AFR under differing transient conditions.
All the compensations are totally dependent on the rate of change of MAP, throttle angle and the engine's coolant and air temperature. Late fuel corrections allow fuel demands to be changed for the "current" intake charge cycle. As an example, following a tip-in event a fuel pulse which has already been scheduled can be extended, or additional pulses applied (Subject of course to induction stroke time base). For tip-out events an "in-progress" fuel pulse can be shortened. This and of course many other functionalities, ensure that it is possible for teh mapper to achieve very precise air fuel ratios during awkward transient events.
Sadly, all Marelli ECU's are quite crap at this compared to more modern technology but then, compared to current aftermarket bolt on solutions they are still head and shoulders above the rest and in most cases, the standard algorythms can be retained. This is not due to hardware limitation,s but more like software limitations. The OEM's insist on faultless running and pour many millions into ensuring they get it.
As for Autronic, its right up there with the best as long as its all installed and mapped properly so call Mark Shead and get your self booked in.
Hope that helps, even if i do wish we could keep all this in my mapping topic
Rod, im dissapointed to read that comment about Karl i must admit. Please try to seperate his customers from him, i assure you hes a top chap and a petrolhead like the rest of us who just wishes you all the best in your endeavours and doesnt wish to get involved in all these "Tuner Wars".
03-10-2005, 07:16 PM
#43
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As for Autronic, its right up there with the best as long as its all installed and mapped properly so call Mark Shead and get your self booked in.
03-10-2005, 07:43 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by jhw
As for Autronic, its right up there with the best as long as its all installed and mapped properly so call Mark Shead and get your self booked in.
And also better ECU's by other companies.
03-10-2005, 07:55 PM
#45
Norris Motorsport
I am also disappointed at Rods rather poor comments towards me. Very poor show chap!
My posts have in no way made out that modern after market ecu's are not good! They are far superior in terms of technology. All I wished to bring to light is that the weber marrelli ecu's whilst technically inferior by modern standards, do still give the best drive in terms of smoothness to any after market ecu, autronic included!!
I wanted to make this quite clear as I often see people knocking the OEM mgmt saying that aftermarket will transform the car, when in fact it will do no such thing!
My posts have in no way made out that modern after market ecu's are not good! They are far superior in terms of technology. All I wished to bring to light is that the weber marrelli ecu's whilst technically inferior by modern standards, do still give the best drive in terms of smoothness to any after market ecu, autronic included!!
I wanted to make this quite clear as I often see people knocking the OEM mgmt saying that aftermarket will transform the car, when in fact it will do no such thing!
about how these things work and drive 
03-10-2005, 08:18 PM
#52
PassionFord Post Whore!!
RichardPON, I think you need to get off the beer 
as all I replied to was Alan S1 question and made a comment on others, Only Stu gave the correct and unbiased comment .
Mark
as all I replied to was Alan S1 question and made a comment on others, Only Stu gave the correct and unbiased comment .Mark
03-10-2005, 08:26 PM
#55
Norris Motorsport
Mark, Stu said nothing more than I did: Stu's quote:
"Sadly, all Marelli ECU's are quite crap at this compared to more modern technology but then, compared to current aftermarket bolt on solutions they are still head and shoulders above the rest "
This is exactly what I said if you read all my posts. I merely made comment that when people often slate the OE marelli mgmt stating that aftermarket will transform the drive this is of course incorrect!
"Sadly, all Marelli ECU's are quite crap at this compared to more modern technology but then, compared to current aftermarket bolt on solutions they are still head and shoulders above the rest "
This is exactly what I said if you read all my posts. I merely made comment that when people often slate the OE marelli mgmt stating that aftermarket will transform the drive this is of course incorrect!
03-10-2005, 08:37 PM
#57
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have to agree with Karl on his comments here.
anyone who says any ecu will give more power/torgue than any other has no understanding of this technology.
whilst modern technology allows mapping to be easier and allow for more variables and conditions, an ecu is only as good as the person who calibrates/maps it.
modern ecu's with there inproved processor speeds and more flexible software algorithms, can track transient fueling far more accurately and can be easier to set up. This does NOT make it a better product because once set up correctly it should give the same results.
SETTING UP BEING THE KEY HERE
anyone who uses only one type of ecu such (i include both mark and karl in this) will always get comfortable with their chosen technology.
dont forget, before many aftermarket ecu's were available, cosworths were making 500+hp on level 1 and level 6 weber types succesfully for many years.
the weber units L8 and P8 are a true testiment to their original purpose that still stands up to the test of time.
also, dont forget those people/companies who have improved the original software too that still is found in many tuned YB engines still using weber ecu's.
anyone who says any ecu will give more power/torgue than any other has no understanding of this technology.
whilst modern technology allows mapping to be easier and allow for more variables and conditions, an ecu is only as good as the person who calibrates/maps it.
modern ecu's with there inproved processor speeds and more flexible software algorithms, can track transient fueling far more accurately and can be easier to set up. This does NOT make it a better product because once set up correctly it should give the same results.
SETTING UP BEING THE KEY HERE
anyone who uses only one type of ecu such (i include both mark and karl in this) will always get comfortable with their chosen technology.
dont forget, before many aftermarket ecu's were available, cosworths were making 500+hp on level 1 and level 6 weber types succesfully for many years.
the weber units L8 and P8 are a true testiment to their original purpose that still stands up to the test of time.
also, dont forget those people/companies who have improved the original software too that still is found in many tuned YB engines still using weber ecu's.
03-10-2005, 08:38 PM
#58
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Karl that is your opinon 
, But my relailty is quite diferent, the problem you have with L6 L8 is you run out of load points to correctly map the whole range without large chunks not being right, if you feel this is not correct then take a look at the lambda graph of a engine you mapped making 428hp that showed that the fueling was very rich as it came on boost and not seemless like it should and could be with another type of Ecu,
This is also the drivebilty areas I am talking about also not just cruising around town, Its the whole packed not half.
Mark
, But my relailty is quite diferent, the problem you have with L6 L8 is you run out of load points to correctly map the whole range without large chunks not being right, if you feel this is not correct then take a look at the lambda graph of a engine you mapped making 428hp that showed that the fueling was very rich as it came on boost and not seemless like it should and could be with another type of Ecu,This is also the drivebilty areas I am talking about also not just cruising around town, Its the whole packed not half.
Mark
03-10-2005, 08:49 PM
#59
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madevelopments,
to make that assumption on ONE set up does not make it true for every occasion.
i have seem some horrid set ups on aftermarket ecu's yet road cars running the weber system that have had extended time and effort in their calibration by the OEM's and the best tuners are near perfect for their application.
so to say that more load sites are better is not always true although it does make more difference where the breakpoints occur.
to make that assumption on ONE set up does not make it true for every occasion.
i have seem some horrid set ups on aftermarket ecu's yet road cars running the weber system that have had extended time and effort in their calibration by the OEM's and the best tuners are near perfect for their application.
so to say that more load sites are better is not always true although it does make more difference where the breakpoints occur.
03-10-2005, 08:50 PM
#60
Norris Motorsport
Mark, the results you often get on a rolling road do not reflect the road characteristics. The fact that 4th gear is being used and the rate at which it can spool up on the rollers is not representative of road mapping.
Please also bare in mind that Jims car is on L6 with no mapable transient fueling. I would normally recommend L8 for such a conversion but Jim was happy with the results on L6. (His car being an early saph came with L6)
Never the less the drivability is still fantastic which at the end of the day is the issue I raised here......................the fact that no aftermarket ecu can transform an L8/P8 managed car.
Please also bare in mind that Jims car is on L6 with no mapable transient fueling. I would normally recommend L8 for such a conversion but Jim was happy with the results on L6. (His car being an early saph came with L6)
Never the less the drivability is still fantastic which at the end of the day is the issue I raised here......................the fact that no aftermarket ecu can transform an L8/P8 managed car.
03-10-2005, 08:56 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by jhw
There is a better ECU!
Although Marelli are producing some fancy ECU's as used on the Piggot WRC cars IIRC. Bosch also do some fancy stuff.This topic is geting interesting.
03-10-2005, 09:01 PM
#62
Pectel,
so to say that more load sites are better is not always true although it does make more difference where the breakpoints occur.
so to say that more load sites are better is not always true although it does make more difference where the breakpoints occur.
With all due respect, that statement and teh one about "Tracking transient fuelling" makes me wonder about the authenticity of your username to be honest.
03-10-2005, 09:12 PM
#65
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Karl, On the Dyno Dynamics RR that was run on it should have been run in 3rd to keep the roller speed under the max, I use these all the time so I know how these work, None of the cars I map have such a dip in the fueling as I have more load points to map with,
Also my fuel graphs are seemless with all the cars I run on these rollers and theres no hiding from these graphs, It helps when all the Dyno dynamics Rollers are factory fitted with a rebagde Autronic AFM meter.
Mark
Also my fuel graphs are seemless with all the cars I run on these rollers and theres no hiding from these graphs, It helps when all the Dyno dynamics Rollers are factory fitted with a rebagde Autronic AFM meter.
Mark
03-10-2005, 09:25 PM
#67
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more break points are only a good thing should you use them all but many engine calibration personel dont always do this.
anyone who thinks that can set up an engine to cope with all conditions in a few days is dreaming.
the OEM weber ecu and its software has no trouble in delivering fuel and power as designed and when modified can equally provide the required results provided it is done correctly which always requires time and effort.
i fail to see what is wrong with this statement, please give me your thoughts on this instead of throwing accusations.
anyone who thinks that can set up an engine to cope with all conditions in a few days is dreaming.
the OEM weber ecu and its software has no trouble in delivering fuel and power as designed and when modified can equally provide the required results provided it is done correctly which always requires time and effort.
Originally Posted by Pectel
modern ecu's with there inproved processor speeds and more flexible software algorithms, can track transient fueling far more accurately and can be easier to set up. This does NOT make it a better product because once set up correctly it should give the same results.
SETTING UP BEING THE KEY HERE
SETTING UP BEING THE KEY HERE
03-10-2005, 09:34 PM
#68
15K+ Super Poster!!
Very Interesting. How many load sites do the 1/6/8 weber ecu's have?
U can't beat KE for transients
What facilities do the std ecu's have for transients that after market type don't?
U can't beat KE for transients
What facilities do the std ecu's have for transients that after market type don't?
03-10-2005, 09:36 PM
#69
How can a speed density (Manifold pressure sensed) system TRACK anything like that at all? 
It isnt intelligent enough to calculate airflow of any form whatsoever and can only make 95% accurate assesment's of air density in a given airchamber based mainly on air temperature and the pressure within the vessel. It does a better calculation of it when given good throttle angle data but is still totally unable to track anything whatsoever IMO and needs to be told what to do to "Pre-Empt" a problem such as a tip in fuel error as far as i can gather from light consideration of this topic at this time of night.
Only a MAF system with the ability to calculate both density and consumption could make any intelligent tracking or adjustment in real time of this phenomenon.
No offence intended, i genuinely dont understand where you are going with the statement and am fully willing to bow to your superioir knowledge if i am incorrect.
It isnt intelligent enough to calculate airflow of any form whatsoever and can only make 95% accurate assesment's of air density in a given airchamber based mainly on air temperature and the pressure within the vessel. It does a better calculation of it when given good throttle angle data but is still totally unable to track anything whatsoever IMO and needs to be told what to do to "Pre-Empt" a problem such as a tip in fuel error as far as i can gather from light consideration of this topic at this time of night.
Only a MAF system with the ability to calculate both density and consumption could make any intelligent tracking or adjustment in real time of this phenomenon.
No offence intended, i genuinely dont understand where you are going with the statement and am fully willing to bow to your superioir knowledge if i am incorrect.
03-10-2005, 10:11 PM
#70
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agree completely with that. afm's still have their issues compared to map sensors but are still far from ideal in transient conditions. as you are probally aware, there are many factors requiring correction in order to get the true air flow at the point of fuel atomisation.
my original point is time, effort and skill are paramount to any ecu calibration be it a weber or other aftermarket ecu.
your are right, it is late - good night
my original point is time, effort and skill are paramount to any ecu calibration be it a weber or other aftermarket ecu.
your are right, it is late - good night
04-10-2005, 10:50 AM
#74
Originally Posted by Pectel
more break points are only a good thing should you use them all but many engine calibration personel dont always do this.
anyone who thinks that can set up an engine to cope with all conditions in a few days is dreaming.
anyone who thinks that can set up an engine to cope with all conditions in a few days is dreaming.
The fact that are some people out there who dont map thoroughly enough on aftermarket ECU's is not a fault of the technology, you are making it sound like Autronic isnt as good simply because some people mapping it dont use it properly, thats a nonsense IMHO
04-10-2005, 04:12 PM
#80
im going with dta p8 pro system on my car purely down to cost really as the price from mark is around 1300 diy where i can get the dta with all the bits needed for half that . The autronic is a very clever ecu but as im not loaded ive tried to find a ecu that has all the modern functions ect and dta looks very competetive , and i have spoke to jamie at jamsport whos got one on his cossie and is very pleased with it , but if i had the money id be crossing marks palms with lots of paper .
As far as the tuners well looking back at it all reading how pleased peeps are with there work then it seems to me that there all good in there areas of knowledge in tuning but the fact remains the weber gear is gettin old looms and ecus getting unreliable being my main reason for going for a stand alone ecu
cheers jay
As far as the tuners well looking back at it all reading how pleased peeps are with there work then it seems to me that there all good in there areas of knowledge in tuning but the fact remains the weber gear is gettin old looms and ecus getting unreliable being my main reason for going for a stand alone ecu
cheers jay