heeman10

I would really like to know of the best way to "learn" engine mapping. I'm in my final year of a Motor Sports Engineering degree, and really want to include mapping in my skills as an engineer. I just don't know how to go about picking it up at the moment, and would like any input and/or suggestions from people in the know

seveneigths

PM stu mate i'm shore he will point you in the right direction

Regards Paul

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Done many courses mate it makes no difference. The only thing to do is start breaking engines and finding out what its all about.

Set up a bench stand and engine and destroy it then do it over and over again untill you stop destroying it. When you done that well, you are about 5% complete to be able to call yourself a tuner and to be able to map. Been doing it for 3 years now and still wouldnt want to let customers cars go without having them checked by a Pro...

Regards

nor_cossie

This place have some classes
http://www.efi101.com/

JesseT

I've mapped a few cars and they are still all fine
It's not rocket science, but it's still better to do the homework first and not just go by trial and error (Jano's method ).

heeman10

seveneigths - Maybe I should. I was thinking he probably gets PM's like this all the time. Ah well, serves him right for making a interwebsite which allows people to send him annoying PMs!

Jano - Interesting method! Starting from absolute scratch (ie having no software or hardware) I think I'd be wasting a lot of time and money doing things that way. I'd be up for doing that after I've learned the ins and outs of mapping, but no point in doing it before! Don't you agree?

nor_cossie - No offence, but that sounds a bit basic for what I'm after. I want the hardcore stuff

PhilM

Heeman,

As you'll be a graduate I'd recommend getting on a course with EFI101 or a similar propper training provider and learn how to do it. It'll set you back a bit of ŁŁŁ, but most banks (HSBC do anyway), offer a graduate professional studies loan, of upto Ł25k. Go see them, explain your course, prospects etc, explain how they'd be enhanced by this extra professional course, how you plan to deal with reayments etc.

I'd stick to doing tis proffessionally, there are a few guys on here who leanred mapping through a bit of self study, trial and error etc, but thats not going to get you a job with the likes of Cosworth, MSport, McLaren etc, which with you degree I'd imagine you'll want to be doing in the future.

Icurus

If you map ya own car then go win races and race series, that will make people stop and listen to you and get you a job with top companies degree or not!

Plus its got to be more fun blowing up a few pinto's along the way

heeman10

PhilM - Do you recommend EFI101 because you know their courses are good, or were you just using the name as an example? I want to taught all about it, not find out by blowing things up etc, there's not a great deal of science in that unless you have a base to start from. So Jano's theory is all well and good, provided you have some ground to start from. Thanks for the thought, useful reply

Icurus - Once I know how to map, that will be a good way to advertise what I can do, but I need to get there first!

PhilM

Just mentioned them as they are quiet well known about. I think Gareth T is planning on going over there some time for a course also. There will be a fair few people who run these courses within the industry in the UK, would your lecturers be able to help?

GARETH T

PhilM, i was going to be going over mate,, but plans fell appart, so i didnt bother in the end! will do ti one day just too see

ive read the book which ben (efi101) wrote,, it was ok,,, but ive also read much better

GARETH T

if you mean a becnh stand just too hold the engine ( so no real load applied) and blow the engine up,, i will give you a medal

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

You can read as many books as you like but it will never be the same as learning by your mistakes and first hand.. I agree that you do obviously need some sort of idea to what you are doing

Once you know how to map you will still need loads of experiance this could take years before you can trust what you do is right or you will be paying for many engine builds..

Alot of people know what to do when it comes to mapping, but having the sofware, hardware, experiance, and someone you can trust to do it right removes alot of people from the list.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Agree with Jano here

Although, after market ecu's make access to this alot easier these days.

Irespective of the ecu used, you need to learn how to use it and this is a minor
learning curve compared to tuning the engine.

I had to learn mapping myself as I designed my own ecu (in case you didnt know )
but this doesnt make me a mapper of any high standard at all.

I have mapped my own engine but it could be better if done by a pro with years of experience.

Unfortunately the only real way of learning is to go and do it and learn by your mistakes.

If any tuner says he hasnt broken a few engines while learning then they ARE lying !! (IMO of course )

I myself, in the early days I have melted 2 of my own engines due to ignorance
but learned from this VERY quickly.

The best book I have read was the Haynes manual written by Dave Walker.
Very well written and straight to the point.
Wish I had read it BEFORE I learned the hard way.

Icurus

Dave Walker is the man

And that haynes manual is a top read, no a MUST read

heeman10

Cool, will purchase Dave Walker's book then

PhilM - I have one lecturer who would be of some use, will be picking his brains heartily when I return to uni. I'm wary of signing up for a course and finding it only skims over what I want to learn, rather than sticking me right at the operation point and having me working on engines and coming away with useful knowledge and experience rather than a few "9/10, good work" slips of paper from tests! Too many rip-off courses around

GARETH T - What do you aim to do?

Jano - Don't worry, I don't think I'll walk out of an engine mapping course with a scroll tied up with a pretty red ribbon then start mapping customer cars I need the footings to get started, and the further through the learning process I can take myself by way of supervised studying/experimenting the better, I'm sure you'll agree

SECS - Cheers for the input

GARETH T

well there was a time when a rolling road might of been working its way too me,, but thats all out at the moment

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Here is the link for the dave walker haynes manual...

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/s...1025&langId=-1

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

What have you mapped and using what software?

Mapping with a visual interface is alot different to doing it with hex!

foreigneRS

why?

the principles of how to map are the same

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

We are not talking principles!

If you can only map using a visual, i dont think that many will be able to use hex.

This is not principles this is understanding the program you are using, the reason i asked this from JesseT is because he/she uses Megasquirt. This is more commonly used with a visual and takes away the need to use hex and understand what figures and numbers do when changed in the map.

Another thing that people forget is the software and hardware used by some systems are very different. The weber system is not like some of the new management systems around and STILL has many codes and keys needed to use it. Unlike the downloadable versions of most other systems which are just plug and play. If you want to wright a chip with weber you will need loads of equipment like an S4, Pectel software (In my case) Pectel monitor, Blank chip/s, Leads & Cables etc.. The cost for this is very expensive when compared with aftermarket systems.

Regards

heeman10

SECS - Thanks for the link. It's a few quid cheaper on Amazon UK, so a copy is on its way

GARETH T

Jano_OddKidd,

its not the hardest thing in the world to work back into hex,, and the equipement to map a cossie is basic now and costs fuck all really

foreigneRS

Jano_OddKidd,

do you deliberately try to make things more complicated than they are to try and make yourself look clever? how many mapping programs do you know of that you need to know hex for?

he's not talking about learning to map a specific ecu that requires all sorts of shit to work with- he's talking about learning the principles of mapping.

and if jesse can map using megaesquirt, i'm pretty sure that he's capable of mapping any other ecu with any other software - he would just have to learn how to use it.

heeman10

First off I want to find out if I have a chance of being "taught" mapping well enough for it to be my profession, be it mapping customer cars or working in motorsport, preferably rallying. I'd like to get in touch with some rally teams to see if it would be possible to pick it up with their training, as rallying is still a fairly "true" form of motorsport in my opinion. Still plenty of real world stuff going on in WRC, unlike F1 etc.

Ad4m RST

where you doing a motorsport degree mate, i just started 1st year at kingston surrey....

JesseT

Jano, you are completely right that modding hex is more of a workload than using a ready user interface. However, I don't see the art of finding veriables from hex as mapping. That's more like reverse engineering. When one learns what hex variables affect which settings, then it's quite quite simple again. I have no clue about pectels and such management systems, but then again, over here it's quite rare to play with the OE managements, or better yet, install OE managements to vehicles that never used them in the first place. Of course automotive legislation in UK and Finland differs wildly, but generally and honestly i just can't see the point of doing things the hard way unless one tends to sell off the self chips in numbers.

heeman10

I'm at UCLAN in Preston. Did two years at Loughborough then switched. I hope your course is all you hoped it would be!

Garage19

Takes away the need to use hex... yes

But takes away the need to understand what figures and numbers do when changed in the map......

What a crock of shit!

RS500/364

what did you need to do that ?
is it to late?

Graceland

Play.com are selling the haynes manual for Ł13.49 delivered

AndyBlackFRST

Jaesm, I have friends who work at Maclaren... Is that the kinda work you want to get into. Or this for more of a hobby?

heeman10

Graciebaby - Mine was sent today matey, 15.34 posted, nevermind!

Andy - Who knows? I want to work on and create performance cars for the road, but rallying takes my fancy too. It's a tricky kind of industry to "place" yourself in in the mental sense of the word, not literally getting yourself a job. There are so many areas that you wouldn't even imagine exist, so there could well be a job in Formula 1 that would take my fancy, it's hard to know!

Ad4m RST

got BCC at a-level, i'd of thought it's too late mate but its worth a try if you're interested its a top degree..........

RS500/364

ask if thay want my saff to use not to have and do work on got some engines as well was going to have rebuilt so might save me some ŁŁŁ and help the course?

heeman10

If anyone's interested, I've taken all this a bit further now. In my final year (which started this Monday) I have to do a project, and I have decided to use a 1.6 Fiesta Zetec S engine we have, a MoTeC ECU we have and finish building a Megasquirt ECU we have, and play with setting the engine up with each system, possibly with the OEM Ford management too. I'll make comparisons between the systems, as well as fully researching engine management systems and mapping. I'll be working with a lecturer of mine who's had many years' experience with mapping and setting up engines, including re-mapping OEM ECU's. I'll be using the university's dyno, and basically spending as much time as possible playing with everything I can and getting a feel for it all with an expert by my side

PhilM

Awesome news mate, that'll set you up perfectly I think, be able to learn so much from that, an opertunity not many people will ever have!

heeman10

Yeah it's a really good start I think, and will be a damn good thing to be able to tell prospective employers next year. I wanna be I wanna be like Philll!

TWoods

heeman10 sounds like you got a good attitude to learning and know what you want to do which is very important i think. My other half was looking to start a course in something completely different but came across a similar stumbling block, how do you know the course is right for your? that the university is good and will teach you enough properly enabling you to gain work afterwards? How do you find information out as UCAS tells defines entry requirements and the university leaflets an books are basically like adverts like you get at travel centres trying to sell you a holiday to spain.

heeman10

Hi. Yeah, it really helps if you know what you want to do, something that's very rare. I can't say I have a precise line I want to follow yet, but it gets more focused each year. I started out at Loughborough on their Automotive Engineering course, but it proved to be something different to what I had expected, but I left it too late to make my decisions and spent/wasted two years there. I learned a lot, and it's an extremely strong course, but not what I wanted, and the staff/lecturers were terrible in my opinion. Very intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced people, but not lecturers.

It's very hard to know just what you're letting yourself in for before you start a course. Only now, after four years of university education can I really say I'd know how to decide if a course was right. At most it seems, uni's tend to show the first year modules to prospective students, and that's about it. What you really need is a list of modules for each year of the course, plus a breakdown of the topics covered in each of those modules, and any other details you can get. I remember thinking what a drag it was at school, looking through courses and their details, but that was only the beginning. You really HAVE to see precisely what you'll be studying for the three or four years of the course, that's the only way you can be pretty sure you'll end up with what you want. I had an in-depth interview for Loughborough, and an open day is thoroughly necessary too.

So, in short, my guide to getting exactly what you want from your course choice:

1. Decide what sort of course you want to do.
2. Find who offers that sort of course.
3. Get their prospectuses.
4. Weed out the ones you think sound a bit crap/look crap/bad location.
5. Visit the ones you're left with, or at least the top three most promising.
6. Follow up the ones you really like the look/sound of by getting as many details of modules over the course of the degree as possible.
7. Hopefully you'll be left with two or three really firm choices, places you believe you should be able to get into in terms of entry requirements (pick some above, some below what you're hoping for). Perhaps an additional visit to your favourites to talk to lecturers, see accommodation again, workshops or whatever would be a good way to prioritise your university selection list on the UCAS form