cossiemen

Me think all the Norwegian powered Cossies would trash them Jap crap cars at TOTB

Cam

VFM wise a stg3 Saff is still the ultimate bang for your buck for everyday use but that said the modern alternatives are superior if your budget runs to one for very high outputs (over 500bhp) as a Cosworths running gear needs completely uprating (diff[s], gearbox+clutch, brakes and suspension) whereas say an Evo justs needs a clutch and suspension to handle 500hp. The cost of taking an Evo motor to 500hp compared to a Cosworth motor is pretty relative.
I dont thinks it the end for Cossies by a long way but the 4 cylinder Jap alternatives are not that much more expensive now.

Cam

Anonymous

Its all about what you want out of the car.

Last few track days I have done the evo's scoob's and skylines have been pretty dull.

TOTB is all about how much money you have - you have loads you will go fast - end of.

kouzman

cossies still rule... In greece we have a couple of japs (EVOs and scoobys) but our HaRdCoRe tuners are still cossies...

You just have to think high-tech... Forget normal wastegates, T4s and comp ratios into 7s... You have to follow jap-american way of tuning... HUGE turbos (T51Rs), comp ratios into 9s and maybe 10s, external gates, jap spec intercoolers, stroker kits, high revs (9000s and 10000s), and of course stand alone EMSs... We have escossies running low 9s, RWD saphs running lows 10s-high 9s all on an old shitty grip airport, saphs that kill Yamaha R1s from a standstill, etc. etc...

Japs and whomever had to work hard for years in order to get old cossie power...

I have huge respect on japs but cossies are the pionneer of mid-size/class monsters... Even if i won the lotto i would still buy a cossie... or maybe two or three...

COSSIES CAN EAT YOU ALIVE...

kouzman

and dont forget greek and cypriot cossies... check my above post...

our 8.8 escos would be an easy 8.5 at the PoD...

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

GT Battle Results
GT Time Attack - Final 15

1 - 52 - Gareth Lloyd - Ford Escort Cosworth (530bhp) - 1m30.73
2 - 7 - Andy Barnes - R34GTR (700bhp) - 1m35.08
3 - 23 - Steve Rance - Porsche GT3RS (380bhp) - 1m35.16
4 - 43 - Lee Manning / Renton (605bhp) - Ford Sierra Cosworth - 1m35.77
5 - 45 - Darren Bly (650bhp) - Nissan Skyline GTR32 - 1m35.99
6 - 60 - Kevin Atkins - Mitsubishi Evo (550bhp) - 1m36.38
7 - 26 - Andrew Baughan - Porsche GT3RS (380bhp) - 1m36.39
8 - 15 - Sean Breslin - Porsche GT3RS (380bhp) - 1m36.52
9 - 64 - Simon Norris - Lancer EVO 8 (600bhp) - 1m36.61
10 - 71 - Peter Everett - Nissan Skyline GTR33 (600bhp) - 1m37.24
11 - 55 - Mike Rainbird - Ford Escort Cosworth (450bhp) - 1m37.93
12 - 48 - Adrian Smith - Tyota Corolla (700bhp) - 1m39.90
13 - 28 - Sean Bicknell - Lotus Exige (206bhp) - 1m41.57
14 - 56 - Robbie Thornton - Nissan Skyline R32 GTR (600bhp) - 1m42.49
15 - 66 - Matt Taylor / Jeff Stokes - Lancer Evo V1 RS11 (?) - 1m44.02

Yeah, Cossies have REALLY had their day . Look at the power / technology disadvantage and compare the times, not much difference is their ? Cars that are quick in a straight line, aren't necessarily quick on track (where's the 930bhp RC Development car? Oh yeah, it wasn't quick enough on the circuit ). Also bearing in mind that all the cars that finished before me, arrived and left on trailers and almost all of them were fully stripped out . The Cosworth is dead, long live the Cosworth .

Cam

Ł25k for a motor thats maybe good for a couple of thousand miles at very best? Deffo TOTB material!

Cam

How many cars were in the PF Cosworth team at TOTB Mike?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Cam,
There was supposed to be ten, but for various reasons, people pulled out at the last minute or didn't send their money in time .

I'll let Steve Scott off though, as 1. He's bigger than me , and 2. 12 broken ribs count as an "almost" valid excuse for not attending .

Matt

gareth is probably the most talented driver on that list though aint he mike? (genuine question!)

Anonymous

rods car aint goin to do a 1/4 in 9.3 secs though is it, its a top speed car aint it? martins wont do a 1/4 in that either is i suspect, as for budgets, the amount of money martin/kev/rod have spent on there cars must be 10's of thousands, im not on about wethere cozzys are still quick im talkin about wether they can be competitive against stuff in totb ever again[/quote]

Its rwd matey start comparing like with like. if it was In-gear my car is competative against most cars between 60-150 was quicker than the Rocket & the Norris EVO at Brunters. Will never have the grip off the line as you are limited on tyre width, my car will probably peak at a high 10 @ about 140 will never go faster than that. Would have been competative Topspeed as we can run 198ish in 1.2 miles, we ran more Power at totb to attempt 200 . We tried & failed simple as that.
This car was built was built to this spec for 35k ,42k including the car, not bad i say.

Fagin

Good topic imo!

Some slightly "strange" views, but a good debate!

I don't think Cossies have had their day, but I do think they (on the whole) have been superceeded by better technology and experience in other marques for us common people.

But let's be honest this is evolution..... anyone that thinks or thought Cossies were/are going to be the ultimate fullstop needs a brain transplant dont they.

What I think has made this worse is the fact that the UK has been so behind in the tuning stakes for common people. Up until recently this country has only really seen Cosworths as being the be all and end all, and hence all normal access to knowledge and services has been based around the HUGE RS userbase. Obviously because you can't buy Cosworths anymore, the market will only ever decrease and businesses need areas that will flourish not decline. So after many years, the UK has now looked upon other marques (ie the Jap Market) to look at and exploit. Now all this learning and developing has taken time, so it is only now that experience, knowledge and products have come to the point in the country where they are now at an equal level with what was possible with Cossies (talking about Scoobs and EVO's here really). In all reality this has happened over night and will only (as it has done over the past 6 months) make tremendous leaps and bounds as regards to pushing Scoobs and EVO's beyond the next level in the future.

The cossie arena has had it's spot light, but evolution and moving on means it won't always be the case....... thats life, but this does not mean the Cossie has had it's day, far from it, but we all have to be realistic and admit that it is now far from the case that Cosworths are the ultimate in this country as not so long ago they were.

Lets be perfectly honest...... if you have enough money and enthusiasm, you can make anything the bollox..... regardless of marque (well ok, thats stretching to the extreme, but you get my drift).

The biggest change has not been in engineering (FFS, GRP B cars had huge BHP light years ago), but it has been through better use of technology in my view and this is especially relevant for use people using the road car versions.

As has been pointed out.... big BHP doesnt mean the car is going to be the best. You compare a current WRC car against a GROUP B car on a rally stage and see who wins.... I think we all know the answer to that one.

For the 1st time in my life, I have looked at car running, modifications, testing etc from a totally different stand point. My Scoob has'nt huge bhp (at the moment lol), but at 360+bhp and 350+lbft it is so quick over the tarmac it's beggers belief. Firstly after a lot of testing and working with various companies, this has been acheived with ONLY an exhaust change, induction modification, actuator and mapping while still using pump fuel...... nothing else has been touched (no fuel pump changes, no turbo hyrbiding, no injector changes, no head gasket changes, no internal engine changes, zilch, nothing, none). You put that power through a superior chassis with a 4WD electronically, driver adjustable diff and it really does move. Without a doubt this car as it stands, beats the pants off my previous Stage 3 Escort Cossies and over normal road driving absolutely hammers my old 500bhp RS500. 1.6bar of boost by 3000rpm..... it's just awesome as an A to B car, that revs to 8000rpm as standard. The road handling is just out of this world.

Am I blowing my own ring piece?? Not at all, but just trying to highlight the fact that it is undeniable that things will and have moved on, but not specifically down to sheer engine engineering..... move from the use of technology.

The Cossie engine, was/is/will always be one of the greatest performing 2ltr engines of all time...... nothing can change that!

So to summarise.....

For people that want to spend the serious money, Cossies (as has always been proven - as mentioned you look at the likes of Rod, Martyn, Kev etc etc) will continue to be competitive, but as every day cars, available to buy now new for nearly new the Jap Generation has now over taken this otherwise Cosworth Dominated scene.

No doubt I will get a slagging!

RichardPON

Bang on the money there Shaun

Anonymous

Shaun, agreed!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Shaun,
Only because you're and ugly to boot .

GARETH T

nar mate,, nail and head

Fagin

Mike,

If thats progression than I am the ugliest, gayest tit around!

On a more serious note.... I would be very interested in doing some comparison track testing between yours and mine (on a handling circuit that I will be trying to sort out in the near future). As I know your car is well set-up handling wise, it would be interesting for me to gauge differences in setups and use of BHP.... will also look at getting an EVO along as well. All to be written up as an article for ScoobyNet. Ideally would need to be done prior to me testing suspension modifications and again after.

Havent really started to think seriously about this as I am currently waiting for a final production version of a suspension system.

Let me know, if you maybe inrterested.

Apologies to others, for raping the thread with this post.

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Fagin fook off back to your scooby site lol you traitor ,You will get wopped by an evo 8 no point in your test the scooby evo tests on track have been done before and the evo is just better lol

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Shaun,
Would love to kick your arse . I'm at Bedford on 26-Aug-2005, so this might be good for a comparison, as I can only get away with running 1.3 bar there due to noise regs, so this would give you a sporting chance .

Anonymous

Mike how do you control the boost in the escort...

Shaun, I will have a blast with ya

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
Air injectors and 12 position boost pot.

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

mike i recon you would love to lick his arse more like

mk5cos

well. who wants a a scooby? common as shite and look it too! the rs500 and esc cos turn heads where a scooby wouldnt, fact. thats why i bought mine, not many about when comparing to jap stuff and they are cheap to run unlike evo's!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

No thanks Worzel, I'll leave that to you .

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Nice essay Shaun... pretty much says all there is to be said IMO.

Rich_w

Shaun

Damn you. I was reading this thread and thinking what I write at the end. You beat me to it

mk5cos

You reckon a Cossie is cheaper to run than a Evo or Scoob? Have you heard of Japanese reliability

mk5cos

well when looking at the price on the parts , depreciation, and overall runnig costs etc.....i think so. but thats my experience. as stu always says its BAD tuning which gives great problems and expense. yes the evo is better, but its stange how many people would rather have a cossie even though they could afford a evo! which tells ya a lot. but now i am swaying from the original msg

marco

i was very impressed with the jap cars , but still dont think u can beat the luk ov a cosworth,

the strut brace

think fagin pretty much summed it up tbh.

Fagin

Wurzel,
Do your research!!!!

I have the Spec C Scoob...... so if it's good enough for Prodrive to use for Group N, it's good enough for me! Believe it or not, some companies still produce road going homologation versions for public sale you know!

BTW.... The Spec C has already been proven to be better than the EVO RS. The Spec C recently officially did the Nurburgring in 7mins 59secs...... TOTAL STANDARD!

You didnt think I would change from a Cossie, to any old Scoob do you!

Anyway, time for you to get out of your steam driven time machine and join the present day.

Mk5cos,
Funny..... I thought the opposite, just before I chopped the RS500 and Escort Cossies in!

Mike,
I'm on about proper handling tests you bellend, not on a public track day. I'll PM you.

rabmc

could not of said it better my self

spenner

Rice grinders poor copies of what ford started they are very good at what they do, but are ugly have no soul but make bad drivers look like good ones with a load of trick technology .but subaru have seen sense and employed an italian designer to make there car look reasonable .As the argument goes though its like saying my computers faster than your zx81 of course it is but if it wasnt for the zx81 we probably wouldnt be on this forum now the japs are better at copying than innovating

Stavros

what? you trying to say ford were the first at everything they have done performance wise? i think not...

spenner

name a jap performance car thats not based on somrthing else then

Ginge !

suzuki vitara

the rino injection versions

spenner

Stavros

so ford was the 1st at everything then was they?

whats a skyline gtr based on?
supra?
rx7?
and so on...

cossies i guess?

japan had modern rwd and 4x4 turbo motas long before ford ever did

Ginge !

and now they have nice seats too

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

Spot on

Fastmaul

IMO, What will keep the cossie seen alive and kickin isn't that they are awesome cars (engines) it 's the adaptation of the rest of the world that will have them on par with the the rest of the Jap cars Maybe not on all the electronics per say, but definitely on the engine front. Strip all the electronics from the Jap car and a cossie and they are the same..Now, the cossie boys in the UK (and they are!!) need to finally look past that "RS500" spec and see what the world is doing with their cars. If there's old Lima engines here doing 1200HP (yes a 8v drag car) then surely you can get the YB's to do the same. Oh and you guys need to start quoting your power at the wheels!! you'll say I have..350bhp and I'll have 280whp and well have the same power LOL. Long live the UK forbidden fruit in the USA!