For lower charge temps you run on a colder day mate, simple as that

And a decent mapper will cope quite happily with that, most of hte time you are only mapping within a few degrees of det anyway on a road car, so its not like there is the need to be utterly totally precise, its only worth being that anal if you know EXACTLY what fuel you are going to be running, and buying optimax from a garage doesnt give you that luxury.

Fair enough, in an ideal world we would all use a F1 spec dyno for everything, but the difference it would actually make is pretty small in reality.

 

Chip,
Charming, I explain perfectly adequately why I personally don't rate rolling roads for tuning TURBOCHARGED cars and get called a prick - very eloquent response .

I stand by my comments no matter what abuse you give . However, I agree that rolling roads are perfectly adequate to tune normally aspirated cars, just not turbot ones .

 

I wasnt saying for non turbo cars, i was referring to turbo cars as well.

Where did you get N/A from in any of my responses?


Just like the F1 dyno i was reffering to is NOT used for turbo cars, as turbos arent currently allowed in F1 mike!

 

Mike I dont know, but I am sure thay have that aspect covered in their FAQ section:
http://www.dynopak.com/

I say that companys with engine dynos are making an absolute fortune for not a lot of work...........Put it this way IF there was an engine dyno in every major town (or City) in the UK then I dare say the price for a dyno session would drop ro a more "realistic" £ 250 (+ fuel)........and they would still be making good money

 

Well then clearly you know NOTHING about the expense of buying and keeping calibrated such a sophisticated piece of equipment

 

I agree if ultimate power is the goal then safety margins are kept to a minimum in order to get that power an engine dyno is a sensible idea but for a road car an experienced mapper can get perfect results live mapping especially with the Autotune feature (excuse shameless Autronic plug).

Cam

 

Chip,
I didn't say you did, I was just pointing out that I am not TOTALLY against rolling roads, and that they DO have their place in tuning certain cars (just not turbocharged ones) IMO . Otherwise, I think they should be just used for fault finding. I would never ever have any car of mine mapped on a rolling road (unless it was normally aspirated). Engine dyno, followed by on the road is the way to go AFAIAC.

Looks as though Doug has to wait for mid-winter to map his car then .

 

Autotune isnt just an autronic feature, in fact i beleive soon SECS will feature it too.

Shame its only for fuelling though, which is the easy bit anyway!

 

Or to use a tuner who knows what he is doing!

When you say that SECS cant compensate for colder ACTs like some ecu's can, you do realise they only do a basic bit of maths that a person can do anyway?

 

Chip, a garage that wants to equip themselves to do MOT's will have to invest almost the same amount in "purchasing and manitaining calibrated and sophisticated equipment" as a tuning house with an engine dyno

£ 250.00 for an MOT ?????? Or more like £ 29.00 ????

 

Doug, how long is your car attached to a sophisticated piece of equipment during an MOT?
1 minute, if that?

And that 1 minute probably equates for half the (more like 40 quid) charge in reality, as you are correct those disagnostic machines are expensive, although are VERY basic compared to a proper dyno setup.

But even a 20 quid for a minute, or even a tenner, you are still looking at a lot of money for the time you are on them.

hope that clears up the little confusion you were experiencing, and you can have this back as you seem to deserve it a lot more than me!

 

Doug, to put it into langauge you understand (not an easy take TBH)

Dixons sell speakers that go all the way through the range, doing what most people would consider accurately reproducing sound for 20 quid a pop, so therefore you should only charge 20 quid a pop for yours, or maybe 50 if they are really good

 

An MOT in 1 minute.........more liks 20 mins........when is the last time you went for an MOT???

 

READ THE POST DOUG, it will avoid you keep humiliating yourself like that.

I said its only attached to a sophisticated bit of equipment for a tiny portion of the MOT, unless when the bloke is wandering around with a pry bar seeing if he can find play in your TCA bushes etc you think that the pry bar is a piece of equipment equivalent in complexity and the need for calibration to a pukka engine dyno?

 

Mike, Chip, everybody can we all agree on three things please?

1. Engine dynos are the best way to set up/map a high performance engine allbeit verging on "overkill"......also, very expensive and not absolutelly necessary (see 2 & 3 below).......

2. The next best method is a Hub Dyno (Dynapak)........with an opperator that realy knows his stuff .....

3. Live MAPPING is ESSENTIAL on a high performance turbo-charged engine as above - with a live mapper that really knows what he/she is doing

 

Doug,
Your logic isn't very well thought out .

 

Mike, what would be your summery/order of importance of those three options????

 

Doug, id love to know how they think a hub dyno REALLY varies from a set of rollers, it still has all the same "inadequecies" compared to an engine dyno, like mike rightly says in terms of the fact you can control ACT etc, on a hub dyno the engine is still in the car and as as awkward to monitor as it is on the road or on a rolling road, i dont see any big advantage other than the lack of traction issues.

Its all just marketing beyond that really, anything else (other than guarentee traction) that you can do with a hub dyno you could also build into a rolling road.

 

Agree on a net forum????? A consensus between the masses on something as subjective as tuning? I do love an optimist!

 

Doug, its actually VERY simple if you want a breakdown of importance.

1) A tuner who actually understands what they are doing

2) A method of observing the engine that is adequetly accurate for the task at hand.



So for the vast majority of road going cars, a tuner plus ANY of the methods (dyno, hub dyno, rollers, livemap) are perfectly acceptable.

For formula one you use everything you have to hand.

For something in between the two you use whats appropriate at the time.

 

Chip, again I dont know but I had a long chat with Paul (P J Motorsport) and he has invested in a Dynapak (he also has an engine dyno cell)......He said that nowadays he does most of his mapping on the hub dyno...........I guess it helps that he has a pair of very high output cooling fans that it is almost impossible to stand up in front of

 

Mike, another way of putting it is:

IF (for arguements sake) you could only use ONE of the options - witch would choose???

 

Doug,
I was actually referring to your MOT analogy .

Cam,
APMSL at Doug the eternal optamist . However, I agree with Chip that the most important thing is the operator of the hardware .

 

Thats a stupid fucking question to ask, why would you only be able to use ONE of the options?
This is the real world Doug, step away from the internet for a while and try it! Who cares about hypothetical situations like that!


As for your mate with the Hub dyno and the Engine Dyno, i dare say a lot of the reason for using the hub one is that is so much less hassle, so keeps customers costs down, and is still "adequete" for most jobs.

Which all tallies up exactly with what i was saying all along of course.

 

Its funny how things go round in circles with what is trendy for tuning cars, a friend of mine has been "live mapping" for years and loads of people used to say he couldnt possibly be doing the job properly without a "proper rolling road"

 

Paul uses his dyno for people wanting an engine build and then runs it in for them aswell , he maps the engine on the dyno .

He uses the Dynapack to make final adjustments - if needed , but a lot of the time the Dynapack is used for tune ups and live maps etc

 

Chip, acually not so hypothetical for me ........most engine dyno's are booked up weeks in advance so say for example there was an event like TOTB and I would "quite like to do it".......Am I better of saying "no engine dyno, no TOTB" end of........????

 

Right, now we have a sensible question at last


No mate, you will be fine on the rolling road followed by a live map session, at the end of the day its only really WOT and high rpm full boost use that you need to get anything like spot on, and the rest can all be done very conservatively for now.

A decent tuner in a live map will be able to setup everything that you need at TOTB, ok it might take him a bit longer than on the dyno, but he will still be able to do it.

The MAIN thing that a dyno does in reality is give you the control to get the job done quicker, it doesnt really allow you to do anything that you cant achieve by other means.

 

And at last, a constructive and very helpful answer without swearing at me

Much appreciated

 

Yep, if you ask a question like a grown up then im perfectly happy to treat you like one


Hope you do get it out for TOTB doug, would be fantastic to show people what can be achieved with a cossie WITHOUT sacrificing comfort or drivability, Rods already does that for RWD of course, but yours would be a fantastic 4wd example

Plus the queue in weston for passenger rides is getting longer by the day

 

My two pennyworth:


I don't really have an opinion on this RR stuff, but this has to be the most techinical post ever concieved in my name

 

i thought this post was about the love god getting banned from the gtr board?

 

He'll be so pleased when he see how many replies his thread has got, and then so disapointed when he realises that none of them are about him!