Willka

Not sure if this is the correct section for this but im having problems wiring up my puma engine into my KA and was hoping someone could tell me what im missing

I have wired in the 2 signal wires from PATS (White/Green and Grey/Orange) to the Puma ECU and the ignition switch, power and the black/red start inhibit wire into the relay but the starter still isnt getting power

The starter is getting earth and constant power. I have tested the starter by shorting the constant live and switched live and it works

Hope ive explained it well enough, am i missing something?

Edit: Is the clock relevant? I haven't got this wired in yet but can see on the TIS that its related to the starting circuit. Could it stop it from starting?

Cheers for any help!

Will

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

The clock led is the signal led for pats. the led will tell you whats going on when you turn the key.

Have you got the matching ignition barrel sensor ring, and pats chip for the ecu? and the loom is from the same generation car as the ecu?

Remember the start inhibit relay is just a relay. if you bridge the relay it should crank no problem. The starter knows no different.

Also check your fuel pump relay.

Willka

Thanks for the info Warren. Yeah its the correct transponder with the key. I planned to short the relay tonight to ensure it cranks, is there a specific pin that the ecu gets power from when the key is turned so that it can decode the pats system?

Also im running both ECU's, KA for the internal stuff and Puma for the engine. Would i need to wire up PATS and the start inhibit wire to both or as above is there a separate 'switch on' wire for the ECU i need to find?

Thanks again

Will

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

With the KA being so similar to the puma/fiesta etc, you would be better off using the entire puma loom as long as you can find a place to fit the battery junction box.

The PATS chip in the key sends a code via the transponder ring to the ECU, then if correct, the ECU earths the start inhibit relay and fuel pump relay to allow them to run. With the wrong code, a) that doesnt happen and b) the ECU won't run the engine, so bypassing the 2 relays won't solve the problem. It is a common thing to do with aftermarket ecu's to bypass those relays.

You shouldnt need 2 ecus really. Especially as both are ford EECV units. You will need a feed off the ecu to the heater control unit to run the HCV properly.

Willka

Cheers Warren, i was going to keep the two ECUs for now as this is my first go at an engine swap/wiring so want it to be simple. Will probably change later

At the moment the PATS led on the clock just flashes every two seconds no matter where i turn the key. Ive read this means that the immobilizer is active but cant figure out how to turn it off. I assume i need to tap into a wire for the central locking (drivers door) so that when i turn the key in the door it should deactivate but i cant find this wire on the TIS for the ECU

Am i barking up the wrong tree?

Cheers

Will

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

alarm/locking is totally independant of the PATS.

inserting key to ignition and turning to position 2 should mean the light goes steady on for 3 seconds then off. So you arent getting the right signal to the ECU connected to that led.


You need to choose which ecu runs the PATs security features. You should only have one fuel pump and starter relay.

Remember you MUST be able to deactivate the ecu for the engine as otherwise regardless of what you do with the relays, the engine wont run.

Willka

Ok, really cant figure out where the fault is then. I have all the PATS wires hooked into the Puma ECU running the Puma fuel pump relay and Puma start inhibit relay.

So it would still start if the Puma ecu saw the car as locked?

I have attached the diagrams from the TIS for the PATS system, is there anything missing. i.e another signal the ECU looks at before starting?

Appreciate the help Warren, ive been on this for a long time now

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Ive got the PATS TIS diagrams too. You sure youve got a functioning chip? Also is the ignition ring from the same puma? Double check all your wiring. Did you see this key work in the donor car??

Willka

Cheers Warren, pretty sure the ECU, transponder and key are all functioning. Ive also bought a spare ECU and transponder chip and that had the same result, the clock led just flashed

The ignition ring is from the Puma, it all worked in the Puma before i took it all apart. Im certain ive got all the wires in that diagram correctly placed

big_wasa

This tells me you have a power or earth fault with the wiring to the new ecu.

If you where triggering the immobilizer due to a fault with the transponder or aerial reading the transponder then the Pats Led in the clock would flash rapidly.

You can test your key is correct to the ecu by just powering up the ecu with it sat on the bench.

The pin numbers are for a Fiesta ecu so may not match yours





This is the Focus Rs ecu


As Warren said You can run the engine independently of the alarm (Act Active anti theft) You could run the engine any where. I would ditch the ka ecu.



Cheers , another Warren

Willka

Thanks for the info mate, I'm with the car now. Could you tell me where the switch 12v would be coming from in your diagrams. I can't find it on the pin out

I'm sure the grounds are correct, I'm just chasing the lives back now. The constant live 3 amp is wired in

This is my first attempt at wiring, really appreciate the help

big_wasa

Engine control relay.

Willka

Can anyone tell me which pin is the switched live on the puma ECU? I have traced back loads of wires but cant figure it out

big_wasa

I will have a look tonight but it will be a solid red or orange.

big_wasa

Is the puma ecu a 60 or 104 pin ecu ?

Willka

Thanks Warren! Its the 104 pin, i will have a look now for a solid red or orange and see where i get

Willka

I didnt find any orange or red wires coming from the ECU, spent the day tracing wires from the first and second key stages but no luck.

big_wasa

Have another look at pin 55 out of the ecu

Willka

Pin 55 leads to a 3 amp fuse with a power lead from the fuse box. This is constant live isn't it?

big_wasa

Should be, what colour is it. ?

Willka

Its yellow and orange

Willka

Any idea which pin is the wire for the switched live to the ecu? Would this be coming from the Ignition relay?

Willka

Sorry for the repeated posting, but i think ive found it. While researching i found one of your old posts from Locostbuilders:

Il give this a go tomorrow. Thanks very much for your help

big_wasa

No probs just remember the pin outs I've posted are for every other car than a puma.

Never done the 1.7

Willka

Hi Warren, yeah ive followed pin 71 and 97 which has left me very confused. I assume these are the switched live wires as i cant find any others that look right

It leads into a join that has multiple wires coming off of it. Does the attached screenshot look like the switched live to you? pin 71 and 97 that head into the power for the mass airflow sensor

Willka

ok, after going through the TIS diagrams i found that pin's 71 and 97 lead to the power hold relay. I have now put this on the switched live circuit (checked 71 and 97 with multimeter) so i assume the ECU is on but im still getting the same flashes (one every 2 seconds which doesnt change with the key turn)

Does anyone have any idea what im missing?

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

If youre sure youve traced all the wires and there's no breaks or mis-wiring then you need to be thinking where is it different to the puma? The loom doesnt know what car its in as long as it has all the right sensor feeds, power supplies etc.

Something is seriously amiss as it is.

Willka

Cheers Warren, i have run through TIS for both cars repeatedly. I just assume im missing something. I just need to know what the ECU needs to run the car, i.e are there any sensors that the ECU needs to see before it starts?

Is bad PATS wiring or ECU earth or power issues the only reason the led would flash this way?

big_wasa

How have you attached the new loom to the old loom ?

I can think of two things.

First, the antenna around the key is it from the Ka or the puma ecu ?

They are different between an early 60 pin and a latter 104 pin. I think they work on a different frequency or something.

Second thought.

Ford has the Passive and the Active anti theft system. I have never done anything with the active anti theft system as its not needed in a stripped out racer or kitcar.

On the Tis you will see the Active system takes a feed from the rx/tx of the Passive system.


On the pre pats ecu's the Active anti theft would cut the earth paths from the ecu to immobilize the engine.

Wire the engine up stand alone to prove it then start and integrate it.

or

Remove your ecu as it sits now and check you have the memory live with the ignition of then with the ignition on check its still live, Both the switch power wires are live and you have continuity with a meter on the four earths.

cheers

Willka

Hi Warren, thanks for the reply. Its definitely the puma transponder/antenna and i will double check the Puma ecu ground points but im pretty sure they go to ground without interruption

I will recheck all my grounds and will check the connections to PATS as well. Its really strange because in the diagram the ECU switched live feeds from the same source as the PATS antenna

Im so close to finishing now, its painful

Willka

Checked all my connections and grounds, all seems ok. I have 12v switched live on the transponder's pin 1, got earth to gn/ye and the other two go into the Puma ecu on the correct pins

Puma ecu has switched live on 71 and 97 and grounds are correct, is there a way i can check that the ECU is on? Does anyone know of any OBD2 software that can read PATS codes?

Also i have found that i have a QQP0 ecu, cant find much info on this. Could this be part of my issue? When i try switching to my muff ecu i get the same flashing led with no change but i dont know if they are wired differently


Edit: Not sure if this is relevant but when i attach the battery the gauges go a bit nuts and start clicking. The speedo and rev counter needles move erratically. I know this can be caused by a bad battery but I assume this is not my issue as the PATS light doesnt change either way and the engine will crank if i short it

I get 12.2 volts when testing the battery

big_wasa

Sounds daft but the pats led is connected to your new ecu and not your old one isn't it ?


Any obd2 software and hardware will read the ecu if it's powered up. For the basics anyway.

Willka

Thanks for the reply warren, I will try obd2 in a minute. I've been messing with the wires and I have managed to get the led to turn off when I turn the key. No diagnostic codes. It goes from flashing to off, nothing in between

Any idea what this means?

Vacuman

I'm so looking forward to reading that this is finally sorted. i'm sure it will be worth it in the end but I bet sometimes you feel like torching the damn thing.

Willka

Haha thanks mate, there is a very conveniently placed petrol can about 3 metres from me!

Feel like I'm sooooo close, would be the greatest Christmas present!

Willka

Nope, it wasnt due to change i made to the wiring. The led sometimes continues to flash and sometimes goes out when i turn the key, I tried unplugging the transponder and it does the same thing

Could it be a fault with the transponder?

Does the instrument cluster effect the PATS system in anyway?

big_wasa

No it will run with out the dash.

As per vid n my first post. It goes solid on for around three seconds then off.

If you trigger the immobiliser you may have to disconnect the battery for a few seconds to reset it.

Willka

Cheers Warren. Well i cant get the codes using scantool and an Elm327. Im completely out of ideas

big_wasa

You can't be powering it up.

Willka

Still trying to resolve this, i have checked the grounds, 12v live and switched live on the ECU thoroughly. Does anyone know of a good ECU test and repair place?

Also considering an auto electrician but i really don't have the money for it. If anyone could recommend a good one that would be great

I tried to read the ECU again with an Elm327 and a VAG cable with ScanXL and it wouldnt pick the car up. Pretty sure the ECU isnt powering on as Warren said as the PATS light isnt changing no matter where i turn the key