higgsy91

Hi all..
Just recently finished putting my 2.0 zetec back in the car and fitted the megasquirt and fired her up.... And it sounds like death. Imagine extremely loud tappets!
I had new je pistons, pins, rings and a rebore from specialised engines. They told me the crank, and rods were fine so I fitted new std size acl and glyco bearings throughout along with a new oil pump and seals.

Anyway I got that noise and thought it sounded like it was coming from the head so I bought another head and refitted it and it was the same.
Couldn't see any signs of the valves hitting the piston on either part.

Looking like the engine will need to come out, so looking for any ideas from anyone who may have heard this before.

Here's the video..

frsjon

first thing id check is the exhaust manifold and turbo for any blows as this can sound like tappets,then id have the sump off for a closer inspection . first id check the con rod bolts are tight and then the bearings .. did you personally check the little ends when it was built? bore clearances? whats the oil pressure like? as this is a blacktop have the tappets been shimmed correctly?

higgsy91

Manifold and turbo are fine as is the tappet clearances. That's the next thing I'm gonna do and if I can't see anything then I will take the lump out and get it sent off.
I never checked the little ends or clearances of bores. I left that all to the engine builders. Also the oil pressure is great. 80 on cold start with a little rev, 35/40 on idle.
I'm hoping someone here has an idea as to what the sound is familiar to. Its very uniform unlike a rattle. And I took a plug lead off each cylinder and it didn't quiet down. I poured oil down the bores to see if it queited down in the case of piston slap but no different.

I've tried a few things :/

luke19790_3

It not the oil jets hitting the pistons? Did you check the clearance

pcbp97

It may sound silly but are you sure that you have been supplied with a 2.0 head gasket and not a 1.8 mate ?

higgsy91

Interesting, no I didn't, they fitted these. Plus it turned over by hand beautifully. I can't hear any tapping when cranking it off the starter with the plugs out either.

I'm using a standard focus RS head gasket mate. Im pretty certain the gasket wasn't over hanging the bores.
I cleaned all the bores and pistons when I removed the head last week and it all came up spotless again, no obvious sign of contact or damage.

stevieturbo

The noise is very fast...an exhaust blowout before the turbo is possible.

But definitely not anything like piston slap

Sounds like a bloomin diesel lol

Is it the same hot and cold ?

higgsy91

Hmm I have a fociRS turbo and manifold.. A new manifold to head gasket and a new manifold to turbo gasket but its a universal one rather than the rip off ford one. Its a square hole instead of the round hole though. Even so.. It really is as loud as it sounds. Think of a diesel but twice as loud lol

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

clearances set to 0.008" or 0.2mm inlet, 0.012" or 0.3mm exhaust? Using blacktop cams? really sounds like a top end rattle, but can never be sure with a video

higgsy91

Well I completely reshimmed the original head so when I heard this noise I assumed I'd fucked it. So bought another totally standard head and it was the same.
Anyone from round rainham Essex way that might be able to come take a listen?!

Two people have both said it sounds like its coming from the head though. Just want an experienced set of ears to listen to it before I rip the engine back out haha

grant_xr

Don't take it back to specialized engines what ever you do, they're cowboys!

luke19790_3

On down pipe left to the turbo Is that thread for a sensor?

Is it blocked off

higgsy91

Possibly, but they've been building engines long enough. What did you think of the noise?

Yeah its blocked off with a copper washer. Nice n tight.

fiestaphilwxm

Ignition Timing or Injector related?

higgsy91

I ran the injectors on test mode to check this, they're quiet.
I thought it sounded most like piston slap to be honest

pcbp97

have you tried to pin point the area from where the noise is coming from? if you use a long screwdriver and put it on various points on the engine and place your ear on the other end you will be surprised what you can hear. just be careful around the timing belt and pulleys fella

bigjohn0

Is there oil in the head ? Is the head gasket covering an oil port to feed the head ?

higgsy91

Will try that out mate.
Might change the turbo to manifold gasket too. Like I said if anyone Is local to rainham Essex tbrn please pop over and take a listen

higgsy91

Will try that out mate.
Might change the turbo to manifold gasket too. Like I said if anyone Is local to rainham Essex then please pop over and take a listen

b11lkw

Jano Oddkidd isn't far from you, give him a ring

higgsy91

Thanks for all the responses so far!
Thought I'd post this picture for you to look at. I'm insistent that its not the sound of big end knock and tried the oil down the bores to temporarily silence piston slap which made no difference. So I'm starting to think my head gasket is maybe too thin! So I went into a photo I took when swapping the head and noticed clean patches in the shape of the cylinder head. Thought it might be normal to have these areas with not much carbon on them but you can see in Cyl 1 especially that's its completely shiny, almost as if its been wiped off.

What do you think?

[IMG][/IMG]

stevieturbo

It was never piston slap.. It was never big ends.

And yes your pistons have been hitting the cylinder head

Ben26

So head gasket the r we thinking . To thin ?

Could the big end now be fooked as they must of been takin alot of the vibration whe the pistons hit ??

studabear

What head gasket have you used?

pee vee

Seen, or rather heard about that before,. Years ago on a zetec turbo.. Pistons from burton power were too tall. Was doing the same thing.

higgsy91

All adds up now I think about it..

Don't say that haha. Its had a total run time of about 15 minutes Max so hopefully not! I'll be listening out for any rattles once I change the gasket, hopefully the heavy duty bearings bought me some extra time.

No idea I cant find the original invoice, it was a 3 layer MLS HG for the focus RS from matt lewis Motorsport. What would you recommend for a non skimmed head? There's a 4 layer MLS version which should suffice right? Or maybe the 1.8mm I've heard about.

Really? It is rather strange that its happened. They're just standard JE pistons on an unskimmed block! Hopefully this will silence the engine and the big ends are fine.

Added some more photos of the head removed too, you can see where its been making contact.

stevieturbo

How far are the pistons out of the hole ?

How far is the bit of piston that made contact out of the hole when it's rocking at it's highest ?

And how thick was the gasket ?

That will basically give a clue as to whether you need to delve into bearings or not

The pistons may have just been hitting as they rocked at the top of the bore, which you will hope for.

But potentially there is bearing damage, piston damage, pistons squashed and rings trapped etc.
You'll probably be lucky though

higgsy91

I can't answer any of those questions yet. Plus I have no idea on the gasket as I had no receipt. Do you know what thickness the standard 3 and 4 layer HG are for the RS?

I'm hoping I'm lucky too, the first head was skimmed and funnily enough slightly louder! But when I had it off I couldn't feel any dips on the crown nor any scoring on the bore walls. And it turned over fine by hand with no notching.

Will keep everyone up to date with the outcome. Thanks for the input mate

stevieturbo

Skimming the head will have made no difference whatsoever to this problem.

Ben26

I wonder if the block has been decked to much ?

Did u get the block skimmed ?

Ben

higgsy91

Na the block is untouched in that respect. I think the pistons protrude about 0.5mm standard though

stevieturbo

Need to stop thinking or making assumptions.

Measurement need taken, but either way the pistons have been hitting the heads, regardless of the factors that led up to to happening

Obviously cheapest and easiest fix will be a head gasket, if one is available thick enough.

IF, the pistons do protrude by 0.5mm...which is a lot, you'd need at least a gasket 1.5mm thick

Ben26

I don't think fitting a thicker head gasket will really solve this for the long term, if he fits a new gasket without measuring everything up then it will all have to come back off again if the pistons still hit , u NEED to find out why those pistons hit, and what it will do to the compression ratio.

where did u get all your bits from to rebuild, are they new pistons ??? is the crank standard ? if it was me I would take it apart and measure it all up ( as much as u don't want to I can imagine )

higgsy91

Completely agree.. I'll whip the head off soon and get the micrometer on it. As for head gaskets I know I've seen a 1.4 4layer and I think I've seen a 1.8 but I'll soon find out for sure.

Cheers

higgsy91

Took the head off over the weekend and took some measurements. Quite clear that's all been hitting!
Measured 0.63mm on the head gasket with a micrometer.
And used a straight metal ruler and feeler gauges to measure the piston deck height. I got 0.72mm above deck on its highest edge/rock and 0.35mm on the lowest edge/rock.

Going to buy a 1.4mm gasket and listen out for any worn big ends. A lot easier than changing them if they turn out to be fine IMO.

Will let you know if I get the rattle of death this weekend!

Some photos:

luke19790_3

Where did you get those pistons?

higgsy91

Brand new from a guy on eBay from Holland. All in genuine packaging and brand new.

stevieturbo

It was obvious they were hitting from the markings on the piston.

Does the top of the piston look deformed at all in the areas that were hitting ? Or still totally flat ?

Even a 1.4mm gasket, with potentially 0.7mm raised at rock ( which may get worse when warm )...is still cutting it close.
That's only 0.7mm clearance.

It will probably be ok, but it is close

scoooby slayer

iTrader: (4)

can you get a 1.6mm gasket ?

higgsy91

I know! Can't believe i didn't think this was the problem first time round!
Piston is fine, its taken the smooth polished surface away but it's still totally flat, only damage i can see is on #1 in that close up photo, it's the smallest of digs and is on top, hasn't shown any signs of scratching the bore.

Will get the 1.4mm gasket, 0.7mm clearance should be fine, that's the clearance on a standard head after all.


Yes, if i wanted to go and buy a cometic gasket i'd have a huge choice. But the money doubles for a Cometic!