Spun a big end bearing!
13-08-2011 | 11:57 AM
#42
been here many times with engine failure, mainly me pushing them too far.
think of it as an opportunity to go bigger and better, my ZT is great, laggy on boost, but pulls crazy to the red line when it's spooled up
think of it as an opportunity to go bigger and better, my ZT is great, laggy on boost, but pulls crazy to the red line when it's spooled up
13-08-2011 | 12:18 PM
#44
He's talking about bolt stretch, you basically measure how much the bolt has stretched as you torque it up and carry on until a certain stretch has occurred. It means you keep the bolt in a certain elastic range and don't go past its yield point. Apparently due to manufacturing tolerances etc the torque needed to achieve a certain clamping force (between the rod and the cap) can vary by over 10ft.lbs, tightening until a specified amount of stretch is achieved removes this.
Its a very american thing to do, i didn't really do it with my engine, instead i torqued the bolts up and measured them to check they were all a consistent, the amount of stretch is also very dependant upon which oil you used.
Its more often done with a rod that has a nut and bolt. You torque the nut and not the bolt meaning more force is used to stretch the bolt and less lost to friction. I very much its why your bearing failed. It failed due to the reasons in my first post i can guarantee it.
PS this is the normal type of rod bolt set up stretch tightening is usually used on.
Rob,
Its a very american thing to do, i didn't really do it with my engine, instead i torqued the bolts up and measured them to check they were all a consistent, the amount of stretch is also very dependant upon which oil you used.
Its more often done with a rod that has a nut and bolt. You torque the nut and not the bolt meaning more force is used to stretch the bolt and less lost to friction. I very much its why your bearing failed. It failed due to the reasons in my first post i can guarantee it.
PS this is the normal type of rod bolt set up stretch tightening is usually used on.
Rob,
Thanks for your comments James, I'm always happy to share what I try with others!
13-08-2011 | 01:04 PM
#45
Turbocharging Technician
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
From: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Sorry to hear of your missfortune. If going zetec don't drill the head on the ex side, def use an adaptor! You will be ok drilling the inlet side though. STD pistons will take about a bar of boost depending on turbo and compression ratio. I wouldn't even bother lowering the compression or even taking the head off tbh with STD pistons, just put around 12 psi up it and it will make over 200 bhp all day long
13-08-2011 | 01:14 PM
#46
Cheers mate!
Inlet side won't need drilling as i'm having a custom manifold made to fit, but why not drill the exhaust side?
Stock pistons and rods will take about 320bhp (from what I've read) but I will lower the CR as I need at least 270bhp+ or it's going to feel slow compared to my last engine and will be a waste of time! lol
Inlet side won't need drilling as i'm having a custom manifold made to fit, but why not drill the exhaust side?
Stock pistons and rods will take about 320bhp (from what I've read) but I will lower the CR as I need at least 270bhp+ or it's going to feel slow compared to my last engine and will be a waste of time! lol
13-08-2011 | 01:31 PM
#47
Turbocharging Technician
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
From: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Cheers mate!
Inlet side won't need drilling as i'm having a custom manifold made to fit, but why not drill the exhaust side?
Stock pistons and rods will take about 320bhp (from what I've read) but I will lower the CR as I need at least 270bhp+ or it's going to feel slow compared to my last engine and will be a waste of time! lol
Inlet side won't need drilling as i'm having a custom manifold made to fit, but why not drill the exhaust side?
Stock pistons and rods will take about 320bhp (from what I've read) but I will lower the CR as I need at least 270bhp+ or it's going to feel slow compared to my last engine and will be a waste of time! lol
13-08-2011 | 03:52 PM
#49
I drilled the first one I did, it bled oil, stank and leaked! The alu is just too thin In some places where it breaks into the inside of the head, you can't tighten the studs enough cos it strips the thread and getting them to seal is a nightmare. The best option is an adaptor plate and two gaskets (cvh and zetec) and some caphead screws counterbored in the plate. Not sure about that much boost on STD pistons I've broke the ringlands on both 1.8 and 2.0 pistons at 1 bar boost lol
Boost wise your talking about a Zetec bottom end, I'm going with an ST170 engine which has forged rods and stronger pistons so will be fine.
13-08-2011 | 06:21 PM
#50
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 789
Likes: 22
From: Canada
Hello karlos,
Sad to hear about the rod bearing damage.
The rod bolts on your forged rods require several torquing and retorquing sequences.
A stretch gauge is nice, but not absolutely necessary.
Possible cause of bearing damage detonation. detonation hammers the hell out of the
rod bearings. Maybe a bad tank of gas along the way.
Most bearing issues on turbo engines are a result of detonation issues.
Sad to hear about the rod bearing damage.
The rod bolts on your forged rods require several torquing and retorquing sequences.
A stretch gauge is nice, but not absolutely necessary.
Possible cause of bearing damage detonation. detonation hammers the hell out of the
rod bearings. Maybe a bad tank of gas along the way.
Most bearing issues on turbo engines are a result of detonation issues.
13-08-2011 | 08:49 PM
#52
The majority of bearing failures on all cars turbo or not is due to the engine build. A dirty build or some bad clearances.
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 13-08-2011 at 09:56 PM.
13-08-2011 | 09:30 PM
#53
Gutted for you Karlos... Havn't got a clue why the bearing spun, but i imagine u was taking it easy at the time...
But as usual you've already picked yourself up and moved on, i wish i could be as motivated as you are, top work 
and as James says its even more impressive that you get stuck into it yourself and advise numerous others along the way!
A ZT build on a budget will be good to watch... So you just gonna stick the whole ST170 lump in as it is, no de-comp plate or new pistons etc?
As both Rob and Matt say, shame i didn't see you for a chat at FF...
I have a few zetec bits knocking about if you need anything drop me a PM!
But as usual you've already picked yourself up and moved on, i wish i could be as motivated as you are, top work and as James says its even more impressive that you get stuck into it yourself and advise numerous others along the way!A ZT build on a budget will be good to watch... So you just gonna stick the whole ST170 lump in as it is, no de-comp plate or new pistons etc?
As both Rob and Matt say, shame i didn't see you for a chat at FF...
I have a few zetec bits knocking about if you need anything drop me a PM!
14-08-2011 | 07:48 AM
#55
onwards and upwards
st170 turbo all the way, the valves in the head are good for 400 and the ports are big, but ive heard the vvt is a pain to map??
id be tempted to leave it high comp for quicker spool up
st170 turbo all the way, the valves in the head are good for 400 and the ports are big, but ive heard the vvt is a pain to map??
id be tempted to leave it high comp for quicker spool up
14-08-2011 | 08:17 AM
#56
Turbocharging Technician
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
From: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
14-08-2011 | 10:43 AM
#57
I don't agree perry, i've seen accelerated bearing wear due to det/high boost, but no det is enough to spin a bearing on a road car imo. Its the result of prolonged heat cased by no oil or a tight clearance, enough heat to part weld the bearing and spin it.
The majority of bearing failures on all cars turbo or not is due to the engine build. A dirty build or some bad clearances.
Rob,
The majority of bearing failures on all cars turbo or not is due to the engine build. A dirty build or some bad clearances.
Rob,
My case example is the early Scooby Impreza turbo flat 4.
I can't remember the whole technical issues and reasons as to why they ended up running lean on a certain cylinder but they had an issue on 1 bank of the engine where it would run slightly lean but not lean enough to completely obliterate the piston/head etc. The combustion temps would increase and this heat which was being sustained for a long period (opposed to rapidly building up as we all know what an engine failure due to det is like) started to soak into the piston and travel down the con rod. The conrod would expand and tighten around the crank shaft and increase bearing nip which would then destroy the bearing. If you're lucky, you'd park it up, start it in the morning and a few miles down the road and you'd hear the death rattle. If you're unlucky, a big hole and a load of oil pouring through your dash vents as it has been known to happen!
Last edited by DazC; 14-08-2011 at 10:46 AM.
14-08-2011 | 11:00 AM
#58
Hello karlos,
Sad to hear about the rod bearing damage.
The rod bolts on your forged rods require several torquing and retorquing sequences.
A stretch gauge is nice, but not absolutely necessary.
Possible cause of bearing damage detonation. detonation hammers the hell out of the
rod bearings. Maybe a bad tank of gas along the way.
Most bearing issues on turbo engines are a result of detonation issues.
Sad to hear about the rod bearing damage.
The rod bolts on your forged rods require several torquing and retorquing sequences.
A stretch gauge is nice, but not absolutely necessary.
Possible cause of bearing damage detonation. detonation hammers the hell out of the
rod bearings. Maybe a bad tank of gas along the way.
Most bearing issues on turbo engines are a result of detonation issues.
lolGutted for you Karlos... Havn't got a clue why the bearing spun, but i imagine u was taking it easy at the time... But as usual you've already picked yourself up and moved on, i wish i could be as motivated as you are, top work and as James says its even more impressive that you get stuck into it yourself and advise numerous others along the way!
A ZT build on a budget will be good to watch... So you just gonna stick the whole ST170 lump in as it is, no de-comp plate or new pistons etc?
As both Rob and Matt say, shame i didn't see you for a chat at FF...
I have a few zetec bits knocking about if you need anything drop me a PM!
But as usual you've already picked yourself up and moved on, i wish i could be as motivated as you are, top work and as James says its even more impressive that you get stuck into it yourself and advise numerous others along the way!A ZT build on a budget will be good to watch... So you just gonna stick the whole ST170 lump in as it is, no de-comp plate or new pistons etc?
As both Rob and Matt say, shame i didn't see you for a chat at FF...
I have a few zetec bits knocking about if you need anything drop me a PM!
lolOn the way to Ford Fair I think is when it happened as I noticed the knocking the very next morning.
Yeah whole engine but I will lower the CR using a thicker head gasket.
Was a big show, hard to get round and see everything!
Thanks mate!
10.2:1 is too high, I'll drop it to around 8.5:1 same as an RST and see how that is it's never going to be very laggy on my T3 specially compared to my CVH.
In this case you're wrong Rob.
My case example is the early Scooby Impreza turbo flat 4.
I can't remember the whole technical issues and reasons as to why they ended up running lean on a certain cylinder but they had an issue on 1 bank of the engine where it would run slightly lean but not lean enough to completely obliterate the piston/head etc. The combustion temps would increase and this heat which was being sustained for a long period (opposed to rapidly building up as we all know what an engine failure due to det is like) started to soak into the piston and travel down the con rod. The conrod would expand and tighten around the crank shaft and increase bearing nip which would then destroy the bearing. If you're lucky, you'd park it up, start it in the morning and a few miles down the road and you'd hear the death rattle. If you're unlucky, a big hole and a load of oil pouring through your dash vents as it has been known to happen!
My case example is the early Scooby Impreza turbo flat 4.
I can't remember the whole technical issues and reasons as to why they ended up running lean on a certain cylinder but they had an issue on 1 bank of the engine where it would run slightly lean but not lean enough to completely obliterate the piston/head etc. The combustion temps would increase and this heat which was being sustained for a long period (opposed to rapidly building up as we all know what an engine failure due to det is like) started to soak into the piston and travel down the con rod. The conrod would expand and tighten around the crank shaft and increase bearing nip which would then destroy the bearing. If you're lucky, you'd park it up, start it in the morning and a few miles down the road and you'd hear the death rattle. If you're unlucky, a big hole and a load of oil pouring through your dash vents as it has been known to happen!
14-08-2011 | 11:33 AM
#59
It is an interesting scenario albeit a bit of a shit one Karlos!
It's quite interesting that the combustion temperatures raised enough to have heat soak issues down the conrod yet not enough to detonate severe enough to do bore damage.
It's quite interesting that the combustion temperatures raised enough to have heat soak issues down the conrod yet not enough to detonate severe enough to do bore damage.
14-08-2011 | 11:39 AM
#60
Advanced PassionFord User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,553
Likes: 1
From: wirral
i wouldn't bother with the st head karl as you won't get anything out of it for all the hassle you'll go to get it working properly and unless you plan on using ms3 then you'll have to compromise on the timing by swinging the cam as you won't be able to use the vvt right and the black top head is able to do what you'll want as standard with the springs swapped
14-08-2011 | 11:58 AM
#61
lolYeah that must be some heat too!
i wouldn't bother with the st head karl as you won't get anything out of it for all the hassle you'll go to get it working properly and unless you plan on using ms3 then you'll have to compromise on the timing by swinging the cam as you won't be able to use the vvt right and the black top head is able to do what you'll want as standard with the springs swapped
14-08-2011 | 02:07 PM
#62
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 789
Likes: 22
From: Canada
I don't agree perry, i've seen accelerated bearing wear due to det/high boost, but no det is enough to spin a bearing on a road car imo. Its the result of prolonged heat cased by no oil or a tight clearance, enough heat to part weld the bearing and spin it.
The majority of bearing failures on all cars turbo or not is due to the engine build. A dirty build or some bad clearances.
Rob,
The majority of bearing failures on all cars turbo or not is due to the engine build. A dirty build or some bad clearances.
Rob,
That is why I suggested detonation.
And prolonged detonation can certainly damage(hammer) a bearing enough to cause it to eventually spin in the rod housing.
14-08-2011 | 07:50 PM
#63
In this case you're wrong Rob.
My case example is the early Scooby Impreza turbo flat 4.
I can't remember the whole technical issues and reasons as to why they ended up running lean on a certain cylinder but they had an issue on 1 bank of the engine where it would run slightly lean but not lean enough to completely obliterate the piston/head etc. The combustion temps would increase and this heat which was being sustained for a long period (opposed to rapidly building up as we all know what an engine failure due to det is like) started to soak into the piston and travel down the con rod. The conrod would expand and tighten around the crank shaft and increase bearing nip which would then destroy the bearing. If you're lucky, you'd park it up, start it in the morning and a few miles down the road and you'd hear the death rattle. If you're unlucky, a big hole and a load of oil pouring through your dash vents as it has been known to happen!
My case example is the early Scooby Impreza turbo flat 4.
I can't remember the whole technical issues and reasons as to why they ended up running lean on a certain cylinder but they had an issue on 1 bank of the engine where it would run slightly lean but not lean enough to completely obliterate the piston/head etc. The combustion temps would increase and this heat which was being sustained for a long period (opposed to rapidly building up as we all know what an engine failure due to det is like) started to soak into the piston and travel down the con rod. The conrod would expand and tighten around the crank shaft and increase bearing nip which would then destroy the bearing. If you're lucky, you'd park it up, start it in the morning and a few miles down the road and you'd hear the death rattle. If you're unlucky, a big hole and a load of oil pouring through your dash vents as it has been known to happen!
Interesting read mate, but in all fairness your describing a bearing clearance issue
The rod expanding takes up the bearing clearance... Death rattle and oil through the dash vents sounds like a shit way to start the day lol
I had assumed that Karlos had measured the bearing clearances during his build.
That is why I suggested detonation.
And prolonged detonation can certainly damage(hammer) a bearing enough to cause it to eventually spin in the rod housing.
That is why I suggested detonation.
And prolonged detonation can certainly damage(hammer) a bearing enough to cause it to eventually spin in the rod housing.
Rob,
14-08-2011 | 07:56 PM
#64
and the ability to trim each cylinder (in case ones lean etc).Rob,
14-08-2011 | 08:52 PM
#65
to get around vvt, just lock inlet to full lift at 110degrees ATDC, just don't connect the solenoid.
personally i'd use a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons instead, about a grand for bottom end, blacktop heads as standard aren't bad either, just fit uprated valve springs.
i'm running a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons, area six cams and valve springs/retainers, feels very strong when boost kicks in.
with your bits you shoul deasily pull a grand or so, so engine sorted really, just gaskets and belts to get it fully sorted.
personally i'd use a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons instead, about a grand for bottom end, blacktop heads as standard aren't bad either, just fit uprated valve springs.
i'm running a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons, area six cams and valve springs/retainers, feels very strong when boost kicks in.
with your bits you shoul deasily pull a grand or so, so engine sorted really, just gaskets and belts to get it fully sorted.
14-08-2011 | 08:56 PM
#66
I didnt check bearing clearances no, so could of been an issue.
After some research I've not found anyone thats had head gasket failures aside from what Rick has mentioned, plenty of people using the ST170 head though with good results though! I've PM'd Simon at Sitech as it was him thats had the failures so I'll see what he says about it.
If it isnt likely to cause issues then I'll use the complete engine, upgrade to MS3 and have fun learning to map the VVT!
After some research I've not found anyone thats had head gasket failures aside from what Rick has mentioned, plenty of people using the ST170 head though with good results though! I've PM'd Simon at Sitech as it was him thats had the failures so I'll see what he says about it.
If it isnt likely to cause issues then I'll use the complete engine, upgrade to MS3 and have fun learning to map the VVT!
14-08-2011 | 08:57 PM
#67
to get around vvt, just lock inlet to full lift at 110degrees ATDC, just don't connect the solenoid.
personally i'd use a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons instead, about a grand for bottom end, blacktop heads as standard aren't bad either, just fit uprated valve springs.
i'm running a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons, area six cams and valve springs/retainers, feels very strong when boost kicks in.
with your bits you shoul deasily pull a grand or so, so engine sorted really, just gaskets and belts to get it fully sorted.
personally i'd use a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons instead, about a grand for bottom end, blacktop heads as standard aren't bad either, just fit uprated valve springs.
i'm running a blacktop with steel rods and forged pistons, area six cams and valve springs/retainers, feels very strong when boost kicks in.
with your bits you shoul deasily pull a grand or so, so engine sorted really, just gaskets and belts to get it fully sorted.
14-08-2011 | 08:58 PM
#69
14-08-2011 | 09:08 PM
#71
I dont fuck about! 
lol
53k Miles complete engine Ł450, picking it up tuesday.
lol53k Miles complete engine Ł450, picking it up tuesday.
Done a bit of reading mate ... now i could well be talking crap.... but all the references to the vvt seem to agree that its a simple on off system, you just activate the solenoid after 4000rpm or so. You can state a min RPM and min load.
In which case your MS2 can already do the job perfectly. MS3 not giving any real gains other than more optional outs, sequential (simple mod for MS2) and some other bits that may or may not be an advantage to you.
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 14-08-2011 at 09:10 PM.
14-08-2011 | 09:15 PM
#72
From what i've read it isnt mate, it's continously variable so the solenoid is PWM controlled with 50% duty being halfway so it can then advance or retard as needed, if I run it on/off it will swing from full advance to full retard and be terrible all the time! lol
lol
14-08-2011 | 09:20 PM
#73
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 789
Likes: 22
From: Canada
How much power is really useable in a front drive Escort?
I would think anything near a real 250 HP would be all but useless in the first 2 or 3 gears anyhow.
I can understand rear drive - or 4 wheel drive using 300, 400 or 500+hp.
enlighten me.
I would think anything near a real 250 HP would be all but useless in the first 2 or 3 gears anyhow.
I can understand rear drive - or 4 wheel drive using 300, 400 or 500+hp.
enlighten me.
14-08-2011 | 09:29 PM
#74
Well I was running circa 270bhp and had no trouble putting that down in the dry, the wet of course was a different story!
My target with this new build is circa 300bhp as this is around the limit of the stock pressure cast pistons and is more than enough in my little escort.
My target with this new build is circa 300bhp as this is around the limit of the stock pressure cast pistons and is more than enough in my little escort.
14-08-2011 | 09:40 PM
#75
Unless Subaru were not assembling their engines correctly then I doubt they were suffering a clearance issue. Subaru fixed this problem in later models with a revised fuel rail set up. The rod expanded due to excess heat in 1, sometimes 2 cylinders only. The rod should never have expanded as much as it did to nip the bearing under normal operation.
14-08-2011 | 10:27 PM
#76
Unless Subaru were not assembling their engines correctly then I doubt they were suffering a clearance issue. Subaru fixed this problem in later models with a revised fuel rail set up. The rod expanded due to excess heat in 1, sometimes 2 cylinders only. The rod should never have expanded as much as it did to nip the bearing under normal operation.
From what i've read it isnt mate, it's continously variable so the solenoid is PWM controlled with 50% duty being halfway so it can then advance or retard as needed, if I run it on/off it will swing from full advance to full retard and be terrible all the time! 
lol
lol
It wouldn't be hard to PWM the vvt unit with a 50% duty cycle. You might be able to work somthing fancy out with two outputs to let you give 100% duty and 0% duty. Giving you the full array
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 14-08-2011 at 10:30 PM.
15-08-2011 | 02:48 PM
#77
Turbocharging Technician
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
From: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
i have forged zetec rod and pistons for sale karlos, brand new in the boxes with reciepts, PM me if your intrested. Farndon rods, arp bolts and accralite pistons with rings. I understand if you are just keeping the std bottom end.
Ps when are you going mtx cos all these extra ponies and torques will kill the bc/ib lol
Ps when are you going mtx cos all these extra ponies and torques will kill the bc/ib lol
15-08-2011 | 03:14 PM
#78
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 789
Likes: 22
From: Canada
Well I was running circa 270bhp and had no trouble putting that down in the dry, the wet of course was a different story!
My target with this new build is circa 300bhp as this is around the limit of the stock pressure cast pistons and is more than enough in my little escort.
My target with this new build is circa 300bhp as this is around the limit of the stock pressure cast pistons and is more than enough in my little escort.
That is quite impressive.
When I had my 3.4L (normal aspiration) 911 Porsche it had 280 hp with 255/50 VR-16 rear tires. It was almost useless in first gear.
1/4 mile times were 12.5 sec at 118 mph. First 100 feet was slow due to tire spin.
What have you done to get 270 hp to the ground without wheel spin in the first 2 gears?
I am certainly very interested. I am hoping for 240 to 250 hp with the 1.9.
15-08-2011 | 03:59 PM
#80
What you must remember Perry is that no 270bhp 1.6L RST makes anywhere near peek torque in 1st or 2nd as the turbo barely has time to spool, there is of course some wheelspin in the dry at high RPM's but not much really. Your 3.4L NA will be making much more torque than any RST does in those gears! lol
lol