adam151082

my cars just failed it MOT on the brake servo , bassicly if you pump the pedal with the engine off and keep your foot on the pedal then start the car the pedal doesnt move, any ideas fellas? The MOT tester seem to think its the servo

ASHCOSSIE

surely u have to wait for the pump to pump up air pressure again

tabetha

I assume this is a trick question ?
By 3 door I assume you mean cossie in which case it doesn't have a servo, it has a pump, tell the idiot mot guy to read the rules on cosworth brake testing, the pedal will NOT function like a normal pedal as it doesn't use engine vacuum for brake asssitance.
tabetha

cossie350

If its a standard cossie it hasnt got a servo. You should still be able to pump the pedal then switch the ignition on and the pedal should drop slightly, you dont need to start it as it an electric pump not a vacuum from the engine.

cossie350

You beat me lol.....

adam151082

So when the engine is started the pedal will not drop?? The brakes feel fine to use, pretty good infact.

cossie350

It should slightly, there is a test procedure somewhere. If the pump stops working the pedal goes rock hard and is right at the top, this is the same with the ignition switched off. Then when the ignition is switched on the pump strikes up and the pedal will go back to normal ie hard about an inch or so from the top.

dangerousbrian

haha adam where did ya take it? so i know not to go!

cossie350

If the MOT tester is waiting for the pedal to drop when he hears the engine start then it wont happen, it will drop on the first click of the ignition.

pee vee

when did that become part of a mot? ive never seen a mot tester furiously pumping a brake pedal with the engine off

RS2000CUSTOM

It has always been part of any MOT I carry out

BUT

In the case concerning this particular thread methinks the tester has got it wrong

The system I believe his 3dr Sierra has fitted uses an accumulator and not a servo !

pee vee

Ah right! Maybe I just never noticed them then... But yeah cossies won't do it As they are without a servo!

adam151082

Hi-Performance m8, theyre normally pretty good, i think the MOT tester just takes his job abit to serious lol

RS2000CUSTOM

Sorry but I do not agree

It sounds more like the tester does not understand the system he has been asked to test, as part of his test routine is to carry out a visual check of the servo - how did he manage that when you aint got one ? - so how can he fail it ????

You have the right to appeal the testers decision and if your "servo" was the only fail item then I feel you would win and the tester would face possible questioning by VOSA

I suggest you go back to the test centre and ask to speak to the AE and have a quiet word and ask the AE to confirm his NT's results or of course issue you with a pass cert

If you get no luck then ask the AE for a VT17 or print this off and tell the AE you will be appealing

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repositor...l%20(VT17).pdf

AE = Authorised Examiner (usually the test centre owner)

NT = Nominated Tester (could also be the AE)

VT 17 = Appeal Form

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

i find it odd to test servo, surely the brake test should clear any issues up?
pedal boxes don't have servo assistance, so should they fail too?
interesting electric servo setup though.

tabetha

There is NO RELATIONSHIP between the engine running(or not) and the brake pump, the engine running will not in any way at all affect the pedal height, not even 1mm, the pump comes on and builds pressure from position 1(accessory) of the ignition switch.
The visual test applies only to parts fitted originally, thus you can fail a car for a duff or missing servo but not where it was never fitted to start with, all the details the tester needs are available to him, as is the strict test procedure for the abs light, as it varies from maker to maker in slight details.
tabetha

RS2000CUSTOM

An MOT tester is only to test the vehicle as it presented by the owner/user so if a car has no servo (ie, pedal box) then that is not a reason to fail

The brake roller test only tests the force produced by the brakes at each wheel

Note : A system may well have a brake fluid leak and yet still produce sufficient brake force to pass efficiency test but will fail on fluid leak

It is not an electric servo it is an ABS unit uses that uses a pressure accumulator to "store" energy to be used to allow low pedal operation yet produce high braking power

I have a similar set-up on my Range Rover classic also fitted on Audi quatrro UR's and many other vehicles

RS2000CUSTOM

A typical ABS / Brake ABS accumulator set-up

spunk122

Shouldn't be putting anything with any type of LSD on the brake tester anyway!!!!
So it should be tested on road with a decelerometer...
He probably didn't realise it didn't have a servo and if this was pointed out by the vehicle presenter he probably would have given a pass...
Also testers get nervous and twitchy if someone asks to watch the mot as this is one tactic used by vosa to quality control. Testers get points on their licence very much like you would a driving licence depending on the results of these tests...

Just a thought

Dan

RS2000CUSTOM

Not correct - I only ever use a Decelerometer when I am testing a vehicle that is fitted with a permanent 4 x 4 drive system with a "locked", "viscous" or an LSD type centre diff

2wd's with LSD's are perfectly safe on a brake roller

It is 4 x 4 with axle LSD's fitted that cause problems on brake rollers so a decelerometer should then be employed

My Range Rover can actually be safely tested on a brake roller machine BUT I CANNOT do brake balance because this requires the 2 wheels on 1 axle to be operated at the same time.

NOTE:- The Decelerometer can not check brake balance either !

It is his job to do a visual inspection and find out if it has one !

Vehicle presenter cannot in any way interfere whilst a test is undertaken unless requested plus also not all owners/presenters are with vehicle when test is carried out

It is a VOSA requirement that a vehicle presenter MUST be able to clearly view all aspects of the MOT taking place and a suitable area must be provided

ALL NT's must undergo a regular Quality control check by the QC if there is more than 1 tester at the test centre.

VOSA do not carry out QC checks - they carry out Audits of a completed test after they have carried out a test themselves on the same vehicle before it leaves the test centre

VOSA after a Site audit will issue points to both the AE and NT's if required and can also issue a suspension to test for 28 days pending any enquirey if the test centre have been naughty boys !

Points are "awarded" to both tester and the test centre should it be found that VOSA test procedures and guidelines are not being adhered to

There are levels of test centre status given dependant on points received at the centre - RED AMBER GREEN - obviously Green then all is OK with only minor or no improvements are needed - Amber = tread carefully VOSA is watching and RED = expect your licence to test to be revoked

BigErn

Take it back Ad.....

cossie350

It is kind of an electric servo, as in the servo gives more power to the pedal, and in the 3dr's case the electric pump gives more power to the pedal, hence being called a power assisted system.

Also it has bog all to do with the ABS unit they are 2 separate items(in the 3dr's case), you can take the ABS off the car and still use the accumulator pump.

Maxwell

what way does a mainland mot work in regards to testing the brakes???

in the northern ireland mot centre, on a 2wd (fwd or rwd) they put the front set on the rollers and then do a sequence, then do the rears after....in the same fashion!! they also check parking/handbrake efficiency too!! There is an upper and lower tolerance on brake efficiency and them results go along with any visual braking components eg. sufficient disc and pads and non corroded brake lines/hoses, determine a pass or fail purely on the braking side of things! On the 4x4 rollers im unsure in how they would do it!

But with just reading this thread, it has just came across that there isnt a real test of brakes for cars with a mainland mot, because going by the original post...if it had of been in a northern ireland mot, there would have been a higher chance of it passing! The only way an mot inspector would have a problem with the pedal (or along them lines), where if the computer/rollers where showing very poor efficiency!! If the pedal was controversial, but yet showed up good results...they CANNOT fail the car on brakes! simples!

just my 2pennies worth!

RS2000CUSTOM

To be fair if the vehicle had been tested by someone who understood the vehicle presented to them then it would have passed anyway !

As I have previously stated discussions with the AE need to happen and then if still no joy then appeal the decision

spunk122

[QUOTE=RS2000CUSTOM;5552645]Not correct - I only ever use a Decelerometer when I am testing a vehicle that is fitted with a permanent 4 x 4 drive system with a "locked", "viscous" or an LSD type centre diff


2wd's with LSD's are perfectly safe on a brake roller

funny how i ended up with a golf gearbox explode on a golf when the presenter didnt tell me it has an lsd!!

It is 4 x 4 with axle LSD's fitted that cause problems on brake rollers so a decelerometer should then be employed

My Range Rover can actually be safely tested on a brake roller machine BUT I CANNOT do brake balance because this requires the 2 wheels on 1 axle to be operated at the same time.

NOTE:- The Decelerometer can not check brake balance either !



It is his job to do a visual inspection and find out if it has one !



Vehicle presenter cannot in any way interfere whilst a test is undertaken unless requested plus also not all owners/presenters are with vehicle when test is carried out

bollocks!! i frequently use the presenter as my assistant as the test manual states!


It is a VOSA requirement that a vehicle presenter MUST be able to clearly view all aspects of the MOT taking place and a suitable area must be provided



ALL NT's must undergo a regular Quality control check by the QC if there is more than 1 tester at the test centre.

VOSA do not carry out QC checks - they carry out Audits of a completed test after they have carried out a test themselves on the same vehicle before it leaves the test centre

yes they do, and it is a form of quality control. depending on your traffic light status you may be likely to have a car in with faults set on the car by vosa and as an nt it is your job to find them.



VOSA after a Site audit will issue points to both the AE and NT's if required and can also issue a suspension to test for 28 days pending any enquirey if the test centre have been naughty boys !

Points are "awarded" to both tester and the test centre should it be found that VOSA test procedures and guidelines are not being adhered to

There are levels of test centre status given dependant on points received at the centre - RED AMBER GREEN - obviously Green then all is OK with only minor or no improvements are needed - Amber = tread carefully VOSA is watching and RED = expect your licence to test to be revoked[/QUOTE

i am the site manager, quality controller and nt

RS2000CUSTOM

Then since I started testing in 1989 I must have been lucky in never having a problem

I did say unless requested otherwise the presenter must not interfere with the test

QC's are nominated at each test centre to carry out regular Quality Control checks on fellow NT's

VOSA Carry out Quality Audits

Pit Adams 3 door wasnt a "planted" car then

Thats just being greedy

RS2000CUSTOM

QC's are nominated at each test centre to carry out regular Quality Control checks on fellow NT's

VOSA Carry out Quality Audits

To clarify

A quality check is a tool to be used towards your sites Self Assesment as required by VOSA and can be used as evidence of "Best Practise" - no points or any amendment of the test centres status are actioned on the results of a QC - you are simply required to eliminate or reduce the risk of any errors identified occuring again

A Quality Audit is an official assessment carried out by a VOSA officer and can result in points given and as stated the test centres Red Amber Green status can be amended due to any findings on the Quality Audit

Plenty of info regarding VTS Best Practise requirements here :-

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg...cId=1082032486

spunk122

Mate you are missing the point, as we both know what were talking about, this is just tech speak to everyone else. I was just trying to make a point that everyone could understand. Ffs Quality audit/quality control. Does it make a difference. Is it that important to you?

spunk122

I'm really sorry everyone who misunderstood me, I meant quality audit...

RS2000CUSTOM

Actually yes as I work for myself not only as a mechanic and Freelance MOT tester but I also work with a number of MOT stations to ensure their continued compliance with VOSA's requirements as a Test Centre.

I carry out an independant assessment for the garage owners and report back to them regarding their premises and their procedures for carrying out an MOT

I have also assisted a number of centres prepare for the initial inspection of their premises to work towards gaining VTS status

Surprising how many AE's do not realise they implications to them personally of their testers actions should the NT "do something wrong" during a test - Vicarious Liability

Hence the reason I advised Adam to take his 3dr back to the test centre and have a quiet word with the AE to re-assess the previous findings of his NT

spunk122

So we agree he should take it back

Job done!!

RS2000CUSTOM

So any updates on this ?

Adam did you go back to the test centre yet ?

adam151082

Yeah, phoned the garage (spoke to the owner) and explained the Cosworth didnt have a servo and it needed to be checked different so he said he'd mention it to the MOT tester and i could bring it round anytime for a re-test.

15 mins later im at the garage and he said he'd looked on the net and it does have a servo (car also failed on ABS) he also said he would not pass the car due to the ABS not working he didnt even know about the ABS till i told him (Bloody stupid mistake) and he wouldnt of known as theres no lights on. after that i just said if your not going to pass it ill take my car else where as i couldnt even be bothered to argue or even pop the bonnet and ask him to point the servo out to me.

Ive got it booked in tomorrow at a different garage so ill let you know how it goes.

phil_focus

well that was silly, abs or not i'd have popped the bonnet and got him to show me the "servo"!

still, sounds like a shit garage so get your abs sorted and book it in at somewhere decent!

adam151082

Passed!!!!!

RS2000CUSTOM

TFFT - lol

RS2000CUSTOM

But then again are you sure you didnt fail originally because of your choice of footwear ?

Are they camel toe chic ?

adam151082

Haha, nowt the matter with them trainers, must be my fifth pair. What does TFFT stand for?

RS2000CUSTOM

Thank F**k For That !

BRAM

iTrader: (1)

I think i saw this car today on wessington way just before lunch looked really nice where did you take it mate?