DangerousBryan

i have had my m3 for 3 years now and am thinking of a change this year. i have never had a saph cossie but have had a turbo technics xr4x4.
the m3 handles really well and has just enough power so i don't really want to go backwards if that makes sense?
i am guessing it would take 3 door front hubs,polly bushes,ahmed beam and decent shox/springs to get near what i have now?
how much would this lot cost roughly?
power wise i would want as little lag as possible and about 300-350hp.
would it be better with a t34.48 or could i downsize to a small turbo escos manifold and a gt28? not looking for massive power but i do want it to handle. it would be for occasional use/track days and drag strip only.
the other car i have been thinking about is a classic scooby rb5.

crumpet

In a straight line a 350bhp saph would Pull from the e36, Easiest way is to buy a t34 2wd already and get someone to set it up at 2.2 bar which would give a good 360+ imo instead of gt28, but i dont think ive ever seen a 2wd go round a corner with out it wobbling all over the place and the back end stepping out!

155lee

iTrader: (10)

my stage 3 saph was a little faster than my pals e36 m3,t34.48,greens,msd,500 cooler,-31 etc and it handled way better,the m3 was like a bar of soap in a bath compared to the cossie.i had coilovers and a dome beam,poly bushes and big brakes.his m3 was on konis and standard everything else,was a bit tired but every corner required handfuls of opposite lock,it was like he was driving round a 50p piece when giving it some,he could drive it too.

foreigneRS

do you mean 'handle as well' which is a subjective matter, or do you mean corner as fast?

DangerousBryan

I suppose I mean corner as neutraljy.my e36 is on eibachs,bilsteins and a few strut braces and feels really well balanced.its so easy to hold a slide in it.

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

They don't actually handle to badly as standard, it's people who do sub standard mods thats the problem (Faster than a E30 M3 round Castle Coombe by 3.3 seconds )

Avoid excessively lowered cars as the geometory will be shafted, personally I would start by renewing the old bushes and a poly diff mount makes a lot of difference as well and then see what you think.

Martin

saffsta

iTrader: (1)

Try an uprated rear beam.

Daveysaff

iTrader: (9)

Go and drive a 2wd saph first then you'll be able to gauge it properly against your M3. Cossies step out easily, but you can nearly always keep it reigned in, they ride ok on Konis too, and better still on decent coilovers

tabetha

Sapphys can be made to go round corners, the issue with them is that each end doesn't know what the other end is doing, this is caused by the dreadful rear end, and in particular the diff hanger bush, swapping this one bit to a poly absolutely transforms the car, although it will still be harder to get the best out of, due to the superior chassis of the beemer imo.
Someone around my way had a R reg m3 evo, and there was nothing in it between my stage1(and a bit) 280bhp cos and his m3 evo, nop doubt due to bis 316bhp but 200KG extra weight, at the higher speeds I just started pulling away, but really only just.
tabetha

DangerousBryan

WOuld rather have a car that's fun to drive than one that's quick in a straight line and scary round corners.(done that with a fwd cav turbo)

Glenn_

iTrader: (1)

Get a saff bought mate.You will have loads of fun with it.

scottyrs

iTrader: (1)

+1

Turbosimpsons

iTrader: (3)

6 deg beam. decent shocks and springs, polly diff mount. your nearly there.

Mike1

Very true - the E36 M3 will probably have better roadholding mainly down to more rubber on the road. Handling is the perception of how the car behaves in a corner at,near and above the adhesion limits.
As said, new bushes, uprated but not excessively lowered springs, a better rear beam and quality tyres will see you a long way there. Plus don't forget to get it all set up geometry wise afterwards.
I would also say you'd want a turbo delivery that is smooth and progressive, rather than the old-school RS500 touring car type of behaviour, if you want to make best use of the performance on the road

lawnsy

iTrader: (1)

I hated my E36 m3...thought it handled like poo...My saff is defo better to drive and easyer to control when the rear comes out....

crumpet

very comfy too and nice driving position, Plus hold their money compared to e36's, Parts are cheaper too, 6 degree rear beams aint cheap though but coilovers can be picked up cheap 2nd hand!

Theres a real nice 2wd white saph at the mo on pistonheads for Ł4500, Im pretty sure its sold by now though because its well worth that!

Mr C

iTrader: (2)

I would think you would need Ł3k+ to put a cossie near an E36, I like how the BMWs are so balanced but my 2wd is getting there. As said, 6degree rear beam and poly diff mount , poly bushed front end to match, 17"s with at least 215mm rubber and touch better brakes, and koni shocks or soft coilovers.
Then you will want 280-300+ bhp to keep with the BMW in a straight line and a clutch to match oh and a diff to put the power down and get that nose turning in and putting power down on exits. It's not as good value for money but it's certainly possible to make then handle.
I'd have an M3 as a value for money performer but I own a cossie for fun

Mike1

The 4x4 or Escos rear ARB is a simple mod to the back on a 2wd Sapphire.

Ginge !

get a scooby v3 or v4 sti and work from there but then im biased

i promise my impreza deals with bends alot better and more "go cart" than my saph ever did and a few people have driven my car agree the turn in ect just feels direct and comfortable and the prices of them now is just silly, i found a few pics of my old saph the other day and i was at work dreaming of the good old days,,,,,, but reality is my scooby drives nicer just i dont have the love as i did my saph

155lee

iTrader: (10)

a subaru will always be a rally bred machine so should handle better than both cars straight out of the box,the sierra was a jellymould rep mobile taxi with a brilliant engine,plus the subaru is 4wd and not what the op wants.

Mike1

If you want a really sharp turn-in it's worth waiting to see how the 6- degree rear beam improves the car for you but you can still source the 3-door hubs after that to make it even 'pointier'
Remember the Sapphire was a bit faster as standard round a track than a 3- door as it was more stable and less nervous at the front.
You might favour the more responsive front geo from a 3-door though
Good to try the mods incrementally to see what suits you

botters

iTrader: (2)

that may be true but at the end of the day you still look out the window and see a chocolate pistoned japenese taxi

Daveysaff

iTrader: (9)

as opposed to the chocolate headgasketed english taxi??

Jim Galbally

the difference between my old saph and my yellow M3 was night and day. and that saph had a fairly decent setup for a road car. i'd say youre looking at at least a proper rear beam and adjustable front setup to even think about similar levels of mechanical grip and "handling" also the sierra is a lot harer to slide than the M3 so be prepared to spin rather than powerslide.

also persoanlly i'd say youd want a fairly LAGGY setup for it to be more fun, if you try and replicate the power delivery of the M3 youll just fail and be dissapointed, if you get good old fasioned tuebo lag it will FEEL faster and actually be more fun (IMHO)

Mike1

......or the chocolate VANOSd Munich taxi???

ajamesc

now buying one of them would just be dumb lol get an evo or skyline if after a jap or stick with m3s and get a e46 but better still get a cossie and tune it great fun!

ajamesc

only chocolate if built by a dim wits with cheap parts mines been 500bhp running 2.6 bar for 4 years with no head gasket probs!

botters

iTrader: (2)

touche lol!

Ginge !

have you driven one to compare,,,,, your saying to buy cars worth TWICE the value and in reality wont offer much more considering the price,,,, might aswell recomend him to buy as GT2 as its a better car, i was refering to price options to what he is looking for

as i said for the money impreza's cost these days they are great cars for the cash and under estimated due to the crappy image

ive had mine over 3 years and ive yet to melt a engine and im sure a few on here have seen me drive

ajamesc

yes i have and a guy i work with has one fair play if u like them and im shore lots of others do aswell i just think there cheap and slow but thats just me!

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

lol good reply and painfully true also cossie have the habit of melting num 3/4 pistons

botters

iTrader: (2)

ill give you that bang for buck scoobys aint that bad and are a pretty capable car allthough my mat did spin a shell at 32k miles and when we took it to the guy who does my engine builds he said upon listening to the noise it was making , follow me through to the back of the shop and ill show you exactly whats wrong on one of these 3 engines i have in that have all dont the same! he reckons he has a minimum of two engines at any one time with spun shells but all of these are imports that he works on, perhaps it is a problem with the japenese ones???? i dont have enough experience with them myself to comment really except for the few i work on regular

DangerousBryan

NOt looking good for the saph at the moment. Looking at 8k ish to get one up to e36m3 levels? That's e46 m3 prices.

botters

iTrader: (2)

having driven e36 m3, e 46 m3 and stage 3 saph for long enough periods of time to form an educated decision i would still say get a saph as they have this certain undescribable feeling when driving that you just dont get with your run of the mill ten a penny m3's better or not

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

To get a saph even close to as responsive and neutral under duress as an M chassis your going to need to change EVERY bush in the car as they are in some cases over 25yrs old now! Thats old sloppy rubber!

Most respond best to Poly, ESPECIALLY the rear triangulation mount. Then you need to sort the ride height, in most cases your going to have to bin the springs and fit some that lift the ride height back nearer to standard than most owners have them.

For dampers, on a roadcar, you cant beat Koni. If you get talked into adjustable platforms then make sure you do actually get them setup by weight, not setup so they look good. LOL

Importantly, make sure all 4 tyres are not only the same, but decent. Nankang ditchfinders are not going to do you any favours in the handling department.


For those with a larger budget, a nice pair of chassis bars from Danny at Adrenelain and a 6deg rear beam will complete the transformation.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Put all that together with the price of a clean car your eaily looking at 10/11k then add mechanical reliability to get the average maintaned saff as good as a m3 theres probably another 1/3k

Mike Kerbey

iTrader: (1)

When my saph was stage 3, I had a decent set of leda coilovers and sensible ride height with polybushes all around and it was a dream to drive. Took it on a few track days and the newer shape m3 couldnt keep up with me round brands hatch. Aslong as you have a good make of tyre all around, renewed bushes and suspension which isnt to low, in my opinion the car handles as well as it needs to at that power level, round bends and on the straights.

Jim Galbally

just to back up ginge, i drove his scooby at the ring a few years back and i was VERY impressed, it was also a lot of fun to drive.

certainly test drive one and see if it does it for you, dont just dismiss it.

DangerousBryan

I have been in ginges scoob and followed it round the ring Jim,but that is before it had all its suspension bits done. There was nothing in it in a straight line but his scoob understeered like mad.

Jim Galbally

no thats ginge's driving