Ginge !

when the "recession" first kicked in one of my old employers LOWERED the starting wages of new staff and added " 6 days a week" rota rather than every other sat........ yet planed to open another 20 branches around the country due to the increase in business he gained by the recession

must admit i HATE things like that,,,, oh and changed my bonus targets as we was hitting them every month so they deemed it " too easy" so another 20% added as we was always 15% average over target

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Doing what you have to in order to get by short term is exactly the right attitude to have, anyone who works LONG TERM (ie their whole working life) in a shit paid job where they work hard and earn very little though is stupid, it only takes an average of an hour an evening for 10 years and you have a degree in whatever subject you want, or countless vocational qualifications.

If I had bills to pay and the only job I could find was cleaning the council toilets I'd take it, however I'd be spending some of my spare time making damn sure I wasnt stuck with the job forever. Ive worked in a cheese farm, ive worked for mcdonalds etc, and I'd do it all again if I needed to but I wouldnt settle for it long term.

Like I said, anyone who spends a long time working hard for fuck all money is stupid to do so.

I was very specific about that and I cant understand how so many people have manged to take it completely the wrong way despite how very clearly it was worded.

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

You can't blame the money lenders for people's stupidity!!

Sorry, but you'll get no sympathy from me when it comes to people being both foolish and greedy.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, its a totally fucking retarded argument that people HAD to get in debt just cause it was easy to do so.

Ive been in debt quite a few times in my life, sometimes over cars, not because I had to but because I wanted to, and it made me harder up as a result than if I had just saved up the money rather than borrowing it and paying interest, hence ive learnt from it and wont do it again but it wasnt anyones fault other than mine in the first place though, I was just greedy and wanted the car now not wanting to wait till later one when i could afford it, no one held a gun to my head and made me sign anything!

Markb_s1

110% agree!

Ginge !

your missing the point, there is a level of letting someone get too much into debt that is NOT allowed to stop this happening,,, people was paying there loans/morgages with there credit cards,,,,,, i know a couple who got 3 credit cards and took the cash off them to raise 8k to pay for a deposit for there home,,,,,,, thats not ment to happen BUT IT DID which is what i was refering too them types of situations

some people are weak,,,,, ask ANYONE whos knows me will tell you i can sometimes do things that,,,,,, in reality aint the best idea but at the time makes sence but then in hindsight wasnt the best desision

as said i got my self into a MINOR amount of debt that i paied off might i add but there was a time that all this " free money" was being spent so helped the economy look richer than it was so it was let go till one day the dam bust and some people drowned and others are still trying to swim out of it and claiming they are hard done by

addicts of drugs are the same,,,, there is a reason why they aint legal and thats cause not everyone can be responsible and i guess they spoil it for the rest

we OVER loaned money which could have been avoided if we had a better set of rules in place at the time but now we have people declaring bankrupcy due to wasting cash on shite they dont need AND lets not forget the others who just aint bothered, will fold and start up again to help them have a free start and who takes the bill for all of this

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

because they dont read it properly. Plus so many people expect everything on a plate and the concept of having to sacrifice going to a football match every week or the regular takeaway or the regular crate of beer seems too much effort so they just sit and whinge instead

And then when you highlight that so and so started with nothing and worked his way up they dont have anything constructive to say and turn to the race or immigration card

its like a stuck record, boring and predictable. And it sums up a significant proportion of the lower paid workers in this country.

maybe some are too thick to do better, in which case you just have to live with it and get on with things or youll always be miserable.
ahh but you see, people will still argue with you because they refuse to accept personal responsibility for their actions.

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

That is no one's fault but their own though. No one forced them into that situation. If they couldn't afford to buy a house without doing that, then they should have waited, and saved up for the deposit. That isn't the creditor's fault in the slightest, that's just a really irresponsible thing to do!

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

No Ginge, you are - you are the master of your own destiny. You have only yourself to blame for your own actions, not the banks, not the credit card compaines, not the Government.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The banks arent your parents, its not their job to check up on you and make sure you arent over committing, thats your job as an adult.

The banks responsibility is just in making sure there are assets to cover the debt to protect it's shareholders, which is what they have failed to do given the way house prices have dropped as they didnt take that into account etc.

The banks dont give a fuck if you lose your home or not providing they can recover their loan from the sale of it and why the hell should they care providing they make a profit for their shareholders? Its up to you as an adult to make your own financial decisions.



Maybe we should introduce a rule that you have to have at least a GCSE grade A or a A level pass grade in maths before you are allowed a mortgage to try and protect the retards of the world from getting loans they cant understand but no doubt that would be considered wrong too.

You really cant win a sensible debate when you are trying to get a stupid person to understand the answer

Markb_s1

Got A at both of those... didn't help... that was when I was at my worst!

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

In all seriousness I think an aptitude test should be compulsary if you want credit!

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

or an IQ test GCSE and A level maths is too easy these days and they dont teach them how to use their heads with maths just to regurgitate calculation methods. papers went from being mostly white space where you have to choose your method and show it, to "part a do this, part b then do that, part c give answer". No wonder most of the younger generations lack common sense and cant think for themselves as their education hasnt forced them to use their fucking heads.. but yes a politician is technically correct when he says the syllabus hasnt been reduced

Chip

iTrader: (3)

At least it would prove you understand the basic formula for compound interest and that you will be paying back MORE than you borrow, so if you cant afford it without the interest by saving up for it then you definately cant afford it with the interest by paying it off!

Ginge !

chip i think you will find there IS rules set in place to stop loaning people more than they can afford to pay back

as for the stupid person comment,,,,, i fail to see why just cause someone dont agree with you that makes them stupid

its simple,,,, if someone loans money they have NO FUCKING CHANCE OF PAYING BACK then it IS the banks problem,,,,, there is a morale code of somesort

ok ANOTHER spin on it, business loans,,,,,, banks pull the shutters on a business loan cause they seem it as took big a risk yet the person who has the business dont think its a bad idea so finds another way to borrow the money,,,,,, it fails and the bloke is in MORE debt,,, does that make him a stupid ?

loaning people money IMO is a bad idea apart from things NEEDED in life such as operation, home, funeral ect and loans for cars ect,,, sorry but they are the issue BUT they are big business and make banks ALOT of money so they happen and they RELY on stupid people to buy stupid things they cant afford, do not even need and will be paying for them LONG after they stop even using it

but again thats MY opinion of a person who used to borrow when i was young but wont anymore and my last loan was 5 years ago for central heating install

Ginge !

chip its not about "cant afford" its about not wanting to save up for things anymore as its piss easy to get a loan

i used to work at cashconverters as a buying manager years ago and the amount of people that brought in there TV, stereos, ect,,,,,,, you KNEW when the house of cards was gonna fail but there was fuck all you could do,,, people bringing in there video to raise the cash to PAY THE INTEREST on there tv they done a BuyBack on last month

its stupid but it happened and thats what tought me about money and also turned me against it if im honest as i see how it made people act

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Really ginge what rules is that then?
Ive been writing finance software for quite a few years now and along the way Ive picked up on all sorts of the legal bits and pieces involved with being FSA regulated etc but Ive yet to see ANY rule that requires the lender to proove that the person taking the loan can pay the money back.
Please could you provide me with a link to these rules so that I can learn about those as with this stuff being my living im keen to be as clued up as I can.



If someone knows they cant afford to save for a deposit but thinks they can afford it on a credit card at 19% interest then they are stupid, its their actions that make them stupid not wether they agree with me or not.



Why is it a problem to the bank? Providing its a secure loan they just use the security, thats what it is there for.
If the security doesnt cover it, then the bank have taken a risk, whether that is a good risk or not would be something you could only tell my looking at a large number of loans and seeing how much profit was made on the ones that didnt default and how much loss on the ones that did.


It certainly hints he is a bit blinkered if he thinks that the banks decision not to loan him the money isnt a cause for concern, but on the other hand it depends on what he is going to do about that, if he knows that by working double shifts and cutting a member of staff he can afford it then fair enough for giving it a go, even if it doesnt work out.
Taking risks doesnt make you stupid, even when they dont pan out, IF they are calculated risks and the odds looks reasonable.


The key is to lend against things that are suitable security or to people who have a good credit rating, any other kind of lending is very risky so involves massive interest rates accordingly.


Well then you have learned to be less stupid IMHO, some people manage that while they are younger some of us take longer, and some people never learn, thats life!

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

I know you said it was long term,I didnt dismiss your comments in anyway as a hell of a lot of what you say/said is bang on,sorry if it came across like that.

What I was getting at is people right now are afraid to leave relatively shit jobs compared to what they were previously doing as there's so much uncertainty right now in the job market.

I know boys with me who left ford to take 17k a year jobs as they were "secure",yet they left behind a job they were earning £35-40k in.

I used my own experience as an example but this is by no means unique,it's getting a lot like America now where second,even 3rd jobs are not uncommon.I totally agree with you about how people effectively can't be arsed to improve themselves are indeed stupid,I'm merely pointing out that,especially where I live as a city,it's getting harder and harder to even get a look in for a half decent job,people with degrees etc are working in mc Donalds etc,I'm not putting anyone down that does but if I'd spent 3-4 years studying and then took a job that I could have had at 16 I'd be devastated.

I agree with the co-illation,that a hardline approach is the right way,but I just hope they don't bring the country to a stop because they try to implement them too quickly.I mean realistically only the staunchest of left wingers would believe that these changes are unnecessary and it's something we've always been entitled to,but those days are gone.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If people can afford but dont want to wait (the situation I was in when I borrowed) then although its stupid in terms of it costs you more in the long run, thats basically a perfectly acceptable use of a loan.


Thats people who "cant afford" things, probably fags and booze at a guess

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

people need to take responsibility plain and simple.

yes the banks arent without blame but remember who signs on the dotted line.

Even if they toughen up the lending criteria you will still have loads of idiots not repaying the money because on paper its dead easy to have a theoretical capability to repay the loan so there is always that element of trust.

the only way to remove that is to make customers save first for a few months (with statements to prove) to show they are capable of doing it. but even then a lot of morons will still fuck it up

you cant outlaw stupidity. even with finance...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

My Mrs has an HND and yet took a job in halfords because she couldnt get anything related directly to her qualifications.
She's anything but stupid though and took that job because there is a very real chance of career progression, something which is happening for her already and I am sure that in a couple of years she'll be assistant manager.

There are plenty of jobs like that where you can work you way up and I tell you what, fast food places are one of them.
My ex's brother left school at 16 and worked for burger king, but is bright and worked fucking hard, by the age of 30 he was an area manager and in a good year with bonuses was on more money than I earn as a computer programmer and part time motoring journalist combined.

There are LOTS of ways to increase your income over a long period of time if you are hard working and not stupid.
They arent all about education

gaz s1

Well i blame the polish but seriously a lot of so called middle class have also acted fucking stupid and got morgages that they can not afford just to keep up with the jones, stupidity isnt only spawned from the working class, look at the jokers in charge of this country, so called intelligent people and they have done a great job aint they tory and labour by the way!!

Markb_s1

176 in my last one. any more suggestions?

Markb_s1

he's cracked it.

just boils down to wanting something you don't have the cash for right now and paying more for it in the long run imo. that's why i borrowed loads of cash when i was a kid. nothign more nothing less.

would i do the same now? fuck no... because i take responsibility for my situation, have more riding on it (i.e. my own places), and am generally a bit more patient!

gaz s1

So finally everyone agrees all mp,s and bankers are stupid as they for sure have not lived in their means bringing there corporations and countries to the point of bankruptcy and im pretty sure most of these people are pretty intelligent and well educated but plainly STUPID!!, so the taking an iq test for finance has just been blown out of the water??

Isaac.Hunt

If people were less thick, the country wouldn't be in such a mess.

If anyone tries to blame someone paying a house deposit on a credit card on anyone but the fact they didn't have two brain cells to rub together, they are absolutely wrong. These are the same people who jump off cliffs into pools filled with rocks and blame the council for not putting up signs about rocks in the sea.

There are dozens of these irresponsible idiots meandering round bankruptcy proceedings every week.

I actually know of someone who said they were 'so poor' they 'needed' to spend £4000 on a credit card to pay for a holiday to make themselves feel better. There is just no contemplation of just staying at home for nothing.

Do you know what? There is a small proportion of genuinely insolvent people who actually cannot become bankrupt quick enough and get flogged with the stick of fiscal irresponsibility due to the 'ohhh me wanty' of a few who probably couldn't correct themselves to walk the correct way if you turned them around in the street. Before you say it; no I've never been bankrupt and no I've never wanted to become bankrupt.

Markb_s1

That is absolutely NOT what I was saying!

Learn about the financial markets then come back...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

IMHO the biggest single problem with the finance sector with regards to things like the "sub prime loans" that were apparently largely responsible for the problems is that there was no historic data to go on that showed these risks as bad, so there wasnt the waryness that there should be as in the past people who took loans typically paid them back rather than just shrugged their shoulders and went bankrupt for a couple of years then started again.
That coupled with paying comissions which encouraged agents arranging loans to show people how to lie on forms etc put the banks in a position where sadly they didnt know enough about what they were lending, on paper it seemed like they did, but only until the lies became apparent.

Relatively difficult thing to plan against, especially in a competitive marketplace.

People are acting like its the banks that have fucked our economy but to a large extent its the other way around

gaz s1

what i was saying is financial stupidity runs through all walks of society not just the working class, so taking an iq for finance would not work as obviously having an iq makes no difference whatever when it comes to greed and wanting more!(than you can afford) so i stand by taking an iq before you get finance wouldnt work and i have no interest whatever in the financial markets but its pretty obvious than they were run by stupid people as look at the mess theygot themselves in and of this there is no questionj!! or do you think they were run properly and it must be the poors fault they got to the point of bankruptcy??? and chip i read what you wrote above but are you telling me they didnt know how many people were thinking fuck it imgoing bust but decided just too ignore the warning signs, STUPIDITY at the highest level!!, they didnt know what they were lending and to whom, wow im glad i aint got there brains and couldnt foresee it going tits up!!

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

sorry but an IQ test WOULD weed out a significant amount of undesirables from getting credit. its just the clever but stupid people who would be left, but then they are likely to be clever enough to lie/concoct stories to get past most measures you could put in place other than simple credit search and there are ways round that.

as chip says not forgetting the route of fucking everyone for a couple of years then going bankrupt and doing it all again when your credit history clears down

gaz s1

clever but stupid people

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

ok clever people with no common sense.... there are plenty of them who score very highly in any IQ test yet cant grasp the basics of "common sense", relationships, driving etc etc.

or people who are clever but knowingly choose to fuck the system as they know they can get away with it.

Dangerous Malcolm..

My Uncle Tom is MASSIVELY intelligent. His IQ is summat daft and he's got degrees in allsorts, I really can't put into words how intelligent he is. You could ask him all manner of obscure questions and he'd know the answer, but he's a fucking DRIP!! He works in a coffee shop and I wouldn't trust him to tie his own shoelaces..... Intelligence bears nothing in the grand scheme of things, common sense does!

gaz s1

Markb_s1

IMO knowing the answers to obscure questions is indicative of knowledge, not intelligence...

Iain Mac

I'm old enough to remember lending money when Credit Controls were in place.

In the good old days there were minimum deposits for different categories of assets, and we used to loan a lot of money for furniture - perhaps because it had about the lowest deposit requirement.

The number of punters who couldn't wait to tell us about how their week in the sun or new car was going, after borrowing the money for furniture, was really quite a lot and we weren't upset when the controls were abolished.

We also had a set formula to assess affordability - we took net income (without bonuses or commission unless consistent over 6 months), and allocated half to living costs, then deducted housing costs and other commitments. If the amount left covered the loan repayment you were ok, if it didn't you couldn't get the loan.

Even then, people used to get quite antsy at being told they couldn't have the loan - god only knows what it would be like in today's can't wait, won't wait world. Sadly, there is little or no personal responsibility her, but LOTS and LOTS of personal rights.

Dangerous Malcolm..

I was agreeing with Warrens intelligent but stupid comment, and in the context in which I wrote it, I think it was relevant. After all, knowledge is gained through learning, and your ability to learn is based on intelligence!

Were you highlighting that point to make yourself look intelligent or show your knowledge of the English language.......?

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

but NO-ONE has a right to credit.

Iain Mac

I'm going to need you to say that a LOT louder and a LOT more often before that message gets through.

And not just on the subject of credit, but in so many other areas too.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

THE WORLD DOESN'T OWE ANYONE A LIVING

loud enough?