7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

Mate was towing a car from A to B registered in his name with an A Frame, it was taxed / mot'd but not insured . Cops pulled him up because they wanted to know if it was secured ok which it was. Then they said it had no insurance and he got a fixed penalty plus 6 points on his license.

I think A frames can be used to recovery broken down vehicles but is it illegal to tow with them if a car is not fully road legal ? and 6 points seems a bit harsh.

What do you think ?

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

Sounds total bollox to me as he was not actually driving the car,so that must mean that anyone towing with tow ropes are now illegal as well then,track day cars can't be legal then either as they won't be motd.I'm pretty sure I've seen the police using those things as well?

Dicko&Vacant

iTrader: (3)

Bloody hell i towed a car back from scotland 2 weeks ago on an A frame got stopped also by traffic police,i was using a mates girlfriends car and the the car i was towing had no tax test or insurance and was a stripped out track car lol

The car i was using didnt even come up as insured for me as ive got a traders policy the traffic cop checked the tyres on car id just bought and said thats all that needs to be legal?

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

Sorry,didn't mean to say your mate was lying,just meant it sounds usual jumped up police bullshit,take it to court and call them as witnesses to really piss the scumbags off!!!

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

Yes,I think that's their only real concern,that the vehicle being towed won't cause problems for other vehicles.did ur mates licence cover him for towing,think it's got to be before 1997 or something,that maybe why he had shit for it,double check that first!!

BLACKCOS

i've towed loads of stuff with the a frames not had any problems. Its a bit of a grey area for them.Hence why i try to use a trailor more these days.

focusv8

"A"Frame, as in all 4 wheels on the ground?

Or Dolly, as in 2 wheels on the ground plus dolly wheels?

Either way this guy seems to think it must be road legal;

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Tow-dolly-...00000009148711


The clue being recovery of broken down vehicle, so it must have been on the road legally to have broken down.

I always thought, Dolly; car doesn't need to be legal, whereas "A" frame; it did.

..

7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

Never had any bother over the last five years and have even borrowed it myself with no hassle.

This is taken from a Department of Transport factsheet -


"When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer."

If this is so then mates insurance covers him to tow trailers.


I know this is a "grey area" and even the cops were back and forward on the phone because they didn't really know but what they have done him for is the same as actually driving said car with no insurance.

BigChuck

when did he pass his test?

on my insurance i can drive any vehicle that my license covers, if his is the same he may not have been licensed to tow so his insurance would be void.

7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

He passed his test in 1978 and phoned his insurers who said he is covered third party to tow trailers.

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

Then ram the bastards,he's done fuck all wrong,what a bunch of cunts eh?ringing up to try and do your mate for something when in my eyes he's trying to keep well within the law.I just can't see what the court will do him for and as you've found evidence to show it counts as one single unit,fuck me the police are just getting fucking ridiculous now!!!

scoooby slayer

iTrader: (4)

i have been done for it years ago, i was towing on a fixed beam all 4 wheels on the ground but somebody had to sit in the car to steer it so had to be mot, tax and insured. as long as the vehicle doesnt need anybody to sit in it to do anything then it becomes the same as a trailor and doesnt need its own roadworthy legal stuff.

only exception rule is towing to garage to be moted.

7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

There was nobody in the towed car as a vehicle towed with an A Frame is self steering.

bj928

the only problem with an A frame, is that a "trailer" over 750kg has to have working brakes that work under braking, most A frames don't have any braking so this makes them almost all illegal, i believe there are a few that have a device that fixes to the foot brake of the vehicle that then works the vehicles own brakes this then makes them legal, but as said, it is a very grey area, so i would fight it all the way.

focusv8

Also did the towed car have it's number plate covered up with a light board connected to the towing car?

There's also, when recovering a vehicle on a dolly your speed is limited to 20mph or 40 on a motorway.
The same probably applies to an A frame without brakes.

The insurance penalty seems wrong but he's probably guilty of a host of other offences, which may not add up to 6 points, it's worth seeking specialist legal advice.

.

.

7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

The car being towed was a Peugeot 106 which is just on 750 kg


Looks like it might be worth going to court to argue the case. Anyone had any experiance of this sort of thing in court ? What's the procedure.

7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

Yeah the lightboard was covering the towed cars plate with the towing cars reg on it.

Who would he seek specialist advice from ?

Zetec_mk4_XR3i

was never aware of this, used an a-frame loads of times and never had a spot of bother.

Hope he gets it sorted - always assumed it would be similar to towing a caravan say, its being towed with no one in it so surely mot, tax and insurance isnt required except of course in the towing car?

scoooby slayer

iTrader: (4)

fight it 100 % and you will win.

clarke5700

i got stoped towing a mk2 fiesta the officer just looked round the car checked my licence and gave me the all clear

RstAaron.

I wish the police would brush up on the towing/ trailer laws. 99% seem to have no idea whats legal or illegal when it comes to anything like this.

RS ANT

iTrader: (1)

Afriend of mine had the same problem with an A frame there more hassle than there worth he got stopped they fined him he got points a fine then had to pay a towing in fee storage as well then had to pay me to collect it with my truck so his anglia bargain of ebay turned out to cost a small fortune!!!!!!!!!

rostill2007

it is legal to tow a car with a frame with trailer insurance (sometimes included in car ins) as long as all the tyres are sweet was told this by the local traffic plod round mine tell him to take it to court and it will probably get dropped before he gets there

RS ANT

iTrader: (1)

The car your towing has to be 100% legal as in tyres good t n t an has to be insured aswell.

rostill2007

the police told us it didnt need ins t&t because it effictively became 1 vehicle when being towed on a solid frame does seem to be a grey area though depends if the officer stopping you is in a mood or not

Glenn_

iTrader: (1)

What car were you towing?

RS ANT

iTrader: (1)

Its fine wen it suits them you no wot the police are like.

rostill2007

to true mate

focusv8

Unless towing is classed as "Using" then he is not guilty of an offence;


RTA 1988.
Part VI Third-Party Liabilities

Compulsory insurance or security against third-party risks

143 Users of motor vehicles to be insured or secured against third-party risks

(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act—
(a) a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and
(b) a person must not cause or permit any other person to use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that other person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act.
(2) If a person acts in contravention of subsection (1) above he is guilty of an offence.

.

bj928

get the car weighed and show it was under the 750kg, that then makes it just an un braked trailer under 750kg, no law then broken, did the copper look to see if it had an engine, if he didn't stablish it had an engine then you can say it would be under the 750kg for sure, and as long as your insurance covered towing trailers then not a problem, take it to court and screw them, ask about how to recover costs when you win, say you had to take a day off and everything just because the "nice office" didn't do his homework.

ajamesc

we tow on are 3500kg daf aid vans all the time with an a frame.But as its recovery its fine for us being over 3500kg without going into other grey areas!. As long as he has the correct licence to toe and the gvw was not over 3500kg and he had a light bored on the car he was towing also that the car he was towing was not to heavey for the car he was towing with id fight it!

saph4be

sort your head out the car weight goes on the weight on the vin plate and i pretty sure towing a car on all 4 wheels has to be t and t and insured so be carefull i would see asolicitor and get some proper advice mate

Rs Baz

stop there and get some advice mate he is going to need it

any vehicle being towed by an A frame must be legal as all 4 wheels are on the raod i was warned this when i went to buy an A frame myself

towing dolly is the same as 2 wheels are still on the road this is why i had to sell mine

if a car hanst got an mot, tax, or insurance it must be put on a trailer..

even if a car has not got mot and insurance it must still have road tax if being towed buy a towing dolly or A frame as it is still on the road

bj928

if the engine is/could have been out and at the time it is on an A frame, it is no longer the car, so the vin plate has nothing what so ever to do with it any more, you often see pickup rears (chassis and bed) made into trailers, does the weight of that trailer go on the vin of the original pickup, no, as it was not being used as its first built purpose then the vin is no longer valid as such, so as it was a "trailer" it could have had its engine removed and/or many other bits making it a lighter curb weight so again making the vin void as it was no longer the car, but yes legal advice would be good or ask a VOSA person as they have to know all the correct answers as its their job.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

A frame is legal only for emergency recovery to the nearest place of safety.

So by definition the car needs to be legal, as how can you possibly be recovering a car from an unsafe position to the nearest safe one if it isnt, as it wouldnt be legal to get to somewhere unsafe in the first place.

The only exception is if you are towing a vehicle with a GVW under 750kg (ie an axium as no other car is under 750 gross)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If its no longer a car, then it must have been declared as scrapped to the dvla and the logbook surrended, ie it can never go back to being a car again, so no use for most people who want to move a car they want to use again one day.

7xrskb

iTrader: (1)

Bit of info from the AA legal services advisors on towing and trailers.

He said although a car being towed with an A Frame technically becomes a Trailer it never stops being a Motor Vehicle (even with the engine and gearbox removed) and needs to be fully road legal if all four wheels are on the ground. An A Frame can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle and then there is the issue of weight. A towed vehicle over 750kg needs to braked and all but the smallest cars are over 750kg. He said if a court hearing was requested it would most likely be a conviction with the added costs involved.


So guys DO NOT USE AN "A FRAME" unless you are recovering a broken down fully road legal car that is less than 750kg USE A TRAILER.