KW-rscos

Been and had a look on the directgov website, but it seems more geared towards pulling a caravan, all I want to know in plain english is what do you have to do to pull a racing car on a trailer, what are the rules, I have seen a couple of threads with people who want to tow with transits but having issues with the MAM that they are allowed to pull, yet I see cars going up and down the motorway towing trailers and race cars, so for example could I tow an escort rally car on a trailer with say a mondeo?

Sorry if I sound stupid but seems to be confusing to me :S

24vcossiemat

if you have that category on your licence then your fine. so long as you keep the maximum weight of the vehicle, trailer and load all together under 3.5 tonne you will be fine.. if you go over that then you need a tachograph, thats what the law says. but remember vehicles ideally you want to be towing no more than 70% of the weight of the tow vehicle. what licence have you got?? 3.5t or 7.5t ?

D16PJM

i was under the impression you only needed a tacho in a vehicle if it exceeds 3.5t including trailer and is being used for bussiness purposes, if being used for private use ie a hobby no tacho is required.

Pete

24vcossiemat

unfortunately it is the case now. if your train weight exceeds 3.5 tonne then a tacho has too be fitted. that is the law regarding trailers. but the reason you see lots of people with transits towing this and that is simply that there not bothered.. but i've towed heavy stuff, its normally 'in a coppers eyes' If the vehicle and trailer looks right they will leave you alone. I.E. if you have a transit towing a trailer with a transit on it then it is obviously over the towing capacity of the tow vehicle. the trouble is that to have a transit, you then own a commercial vehicle, so its seen as hire or reward. and if you run your transit on a traders policy that also is commercial. if you see what i mean. like I said earlier, if you keep the towing weight to about 70% of the weight of the tow vehicle I don't think you will go far wrong.

ajamesc

U only need a tacho if your towing for hire and reward u can tow for privet yous without one

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

Yeah,I tow with either my merc ml or my latest motor a jeep grand Cherokee.my trailer is a twin axle proper job car trailer,always check lights,tyres etc and I've never had any probs at all.I did see on tv the other night some scotch nob end copper trying to do some guy for towing a range rover with a land rover although he only mentioned the fact that a tacho was required for business purposes only,didn't matter as the stupid twat never even had a licence!!I'm sure if the copper wants to be a nob he will be so the above advice seems good.isn't it more down to the towing weight of the vehicle rather than overall weight?otherwise theoretically you could tow a trailer with a transit on it via a Nissan micra as the total weight would not exceed 3.5t.also,I'm sure with a tacho you can tow more than one vehicle at a time as I've seen transit car transporters spinning up the motorway with a car on the back and one on a trailer?check your insurance as well regarding towing,mine states only a vehicle capable of carrying one car.

24vcossiemat

to be honest it makes no difference, towing a escort rally car with a mondeo ain't gonna be over 3.5 tonne anyway.

ajamesc

Any vehicle ove 3500kg gvw or gtw has to have a tacho if used for busness ie you are getting payed for it up to 7500kg privet use u do not need a tacho

24vcossiemat

the company i'm contracted to has 4.5 tonne sprinter recovery trucks and trailers they have to have tacho's but the 3.5 tonne sprinter recovery truck doesn't when it isn't towing a trailer. on an old car licence (pre 97) like mine you can have a train wieght of 8250kg basically a 7.5 tonner with a trailer weighing no more than 750kg.. but some people miss read it thinking you can't tow a heavier trailer. its not the case. you could have a 5 tonne tow vehicle fully loaded and tow a 3.25 tonne trailer. total weight 8250kg

ajamesc

the trailer weight cannot weigh more than the vehicle pulling it on a 3500kg combe it is a mine field with regs we get it all the time at work lol i fit tachos

ajamesc

Every thing over 3500kg has to have a tacho when towing for busness but recovery trucks are different they dont have to have tachos if only working within a 60miles of there base but if u arnt towing u dont have to drive with a tacho. But a vehicle with a gvw of over 3500kg will need to be driven on a tacho if used for busnes and not privet use

alistairolsen

Ok, the rules in plain english assuming you have a post 1997 license are here:

"
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:

• a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

Whereas

• the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
• Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold."

Taken from http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring...es/DG_10013073

So you need to know the MAM of the trailer you intend to use, not the weight of the car plus the empty trailer. This must be less than the empty mondeo, and the trailer MAM and mondeo MAM must not exceed 3500kg.

Just because you see it on the road doesnt mean its legal, I see loads of cards doing 90mph!

KW-rscos

Yes I have a post 1997 licence, so for arguments sake, I could use a mondeo of approx 1200kg, a trailor of say 750kg and a race car of say 1000kg which would be less than the 3500kg. Or am I pushing my luck as the trailer and race car are heavier (1750kg) than the car (1200kg).

S1

You need to know the towing capacity of the Mondeo, and I'm fairly sure it's not gonna be anywhere near 1750Kg, IIRC my Volvo V70 Estate is about 1700Kg.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

On your license the total weight of trailer and race car has to be less than the kerb weight of the mondeo.

so if the mondeo is 1200kg kerb weight that is your maximum allowed weight to tow.

if you go for a heavier can then you need to be careful because the GVW comes into play for the 3.5 limit not the actual weight.

Towing a trailer of total weight of 1750kg is mathematically impossible on your license, as the only way it would be legal is if the tow car had a kerb weight of 1750 and a MAM of 1750, which is of course not possible.


The way you need to do it is:
Race car = 1000kg
lightweight trailer = 400kg
Tow car with a kerb weight of over 1400kg and a MAM of less than 2100kg

Or take a trailer test

Char1ie

iTrader: (6)

Common sense:

Total weight below 3.5t
Race car nose (or engine end) at the front of the trailer
Car strapped down with four straps using bands around the wheels
Tow car heavy enough that it doesn't wag at 60mph
Lights working, tyres pumped up
Correct number plate on the trailer

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If the MAM and GVM of the tow car arent correct, thats still not legal.

Tow 1500kg of trackcar and trailer with a transit for example and you are fucked if they catch you, likewise if you tow with a mondeo.

Rally Matt

Its only my 2nd post!
We run a motorsport engineering company (we specialise in MGR mainly rally) and I drive for Pirelli running corporate/experience events etc.

The rules regarding Tacho's etc are not as simple as you would first think.

First on the towing weights you can only haul upto the weight of what is indicated on the manufacturers plate, although strictly speaking exceeding this is not in istelf an offence it could be deemed as being reckless.

Combined MAM is the term to replace what we used to decribed as the train weight, combined maximum "potential" weight of tow vehicle and trailer. This is critical. Irrespective of the actual weight if the plated weights could technically exceed 3.5Tonnes (combined) you are in tacho territory. There are some exceptions ie within 50KM of your base (usually accepted as the registered address of the vehicle) Ultilies, showmans vehicles etc but for for most of us there is no exception.

The private/company issue is open to interpretation. The actual wording is "reward or gain"

If you tow anything with potential MAM in excess of 3.5 tonnes and even if its not for for a fee but, in instance of motorsport, you have any sponsorship, opportunity for any prize (money/product/trophy) that is a potential gain. At this point you MUST have a tacho fitted and use it and keep records and to drivers hours as laid down in the regulations.

If you are a private outfit and don't try being clever its highly unlikely that a VOSA official will be so hard but if you are commercial then you have no option other than to have tacho's fitted. Pre June 05 vehicles are permitted to use the analogue type, post this date you MUST have the digital system requiring driver cards, archiving systems and training (read for this Big Ł for no advantage!)

Our LDV Maxus is 3 weeks off requiring the digital set up which saved us about Ł4k!

As a rule of thumb, if you are under 3.5T then its more likely to draw attention for being overloaded and over you 3.5T you pretty much should have a tacho! They get you both ways!

I just bought an XR4x4 for towing and it just sits under the requirement so we can use van and a car to move rally cars about. Many modern cars have very very low plated towing capacities.

The EU rules are calculated as the maxiumum weight you can pull from a standing start on a 12% gradient.

Most of this legislation was introduced after that t**t ended up on the railway line with a car on a trailer. I understand caravans are the next target for tachos and the EU has a deal in place with manufacturers to introduce factory fitted tachos in ALL vehicles (inc road cars), it was set to be 2012 but could have been set back a couple of years due to recession.

These will be similar to systems already available where young/inexperineced drivers will only be able to access cars during daylight hours and may have the cars power de-tuned. Licences will be incorporated in the driver cards so making having your licence with a requirement to make the car go. Also alarms will limit the length you can drive in one go and employers are already under threat of having to include travelling as part of the maxium working day.

Fortunately UK Govt's request to have sat nav incorporated for road pricing and "Anti terroist" tracking was not passed by the EU!

Anyone wonder why we had scrappage? Its almost impossible to make old cars comply with the new systems, hmmmmmmm, thats why our roads are crammed with Kia's and other tat from countries where they eat dogs and think its ok.

DrewHughes

When did you pass your test?

You only need a tacho if your towing for a buisness

Rally Matt

Check out the details of the woman who was fined Ł60,000 with her horsebox, its not business, its any reward.

Just a point, VOSA can only issue a prohibition notice and/or proceed with Ł6000 fine but if they involve the Police the fine can go upto a maximum of Ł60,000.

A prohibition notice can be suspended for upto 10 days at the discretion of the VOSA official so always be nice )

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What do you mean "any reward" do you mean like if you get the reward of your car ending up somewhere else?

Rally Matt

I guess that depends on the view of the VOSA official!

I know one did a guy for towing horsebox with Range Rover, daughters pony in back, to a Gymkahana and there were prizes for best pony.

I think the fact the driver ended up having the VOSA guy on the floor didn't help!

It really is a mine field however there is a massive dodge on hours though!

If you unhitch the trailer, the driven hours can technically be reset (its a error in the way the EU wrote the regs) so it makes the whole thing pretty pointless.

The whole thing is just redtape and keeping unemployable people in a job.

I would rather see trailer MOT's introduced and sensible views on what you can tow with what, ie a set level related to the kerb weight of the tow vehicle but then again I don't make the laws!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

FPMSL

Surely providing she didnt win they would be ok then? LOL



Agreed that trailer MOT's etc would be a good idea though, the current laws are more than a little silly!

Rally Matt

The "offer" of a reward is all it takes!

So next time you uplift a damsel in distress just be careful how she rewards you!

Trust me, we had a long and invoved chat with VOSA early one morning over the tacho requirements and although I took one view of interpreting the rules he took another but we did get a suspension on the prohibition notice, I got the nice guy and he told me about his colleague who he dscribed as "a right 6unt"

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You can say CUNT on here by the way mate, its not a problem.

ajamesc

Anything over 3500kg used for privet hire or hire/reward has to have a tacho in it that includs 3500kg towing this is fact taken from the vosa maunul at work as i fit tachos.Horse boxes that are taxed privately are tacho exempt when we take them for mot they do not have to be in date but there dose have to be an initial tacho calibration sticker in it but dose not have to still be in date but it is a grey area as for example if u are competeing in a comp and u win a prize then u are getting a reward lol. Also recovery trucks do not have to have tachos if they work within 60 miles of there base also things to do with the council dont need them and if u are unable to do over 40kph u dont as i say there are a few exemptions.Ive never herd anything about tachos in road cars lol and ive just redone my digital/analoge tacho refresher test with stoneridge it is comeing into law that all vans will soon have to have a point in the gearbox for a tacho sender as work vans with a weight of less than 3500kg will be next on the list! and i havent herd anything about caravans iver lol and there used for pleasure anyway

ajamesc

Anyting over 3500kgs needs a tacho if towing for hire and reward!

Rally Matt

Its the "Potential" to be over 3.5t that matters.

Dosn't matter if the rig is unladen and just over 2T, if it could go to inexcess of 3.5T then the tacho must be in and working if its for reward and the grey area is what constitutes "reward"

We see many motorsport set ups that use old 7.5t tail lifts, now these have even more regulations, you must have an operators licence, a registered yard (where you can turn around fully) and have the 6 weekly safety checks and logs etc etc. Simply writing "not for hire or reward" on side of a van/truck doesn't exempt you either.

As stated there are some exemptions but for the vast majority you will not be exempt.

ajamesc

No mate all are daf aid vans are 3500kg and have no tachos we can also tow with them as its always within 60miles of are yard. A 3500kg van dose not have to have a tacho in it it only needs one if its going to be used for towing as tacho rules only come into force if over 3500kg gtw/gvw.Also a privetly taxed 7500kg car transporter dose not need an o licance or a tacho! if not use for reward a bit of a gray area but we look after 2 and both are taxed privetly and both dont have an in date tacho still go through mot every year!

RSandy

iTrader: (1)

just to throw another spanner in the works, this is something im really struggling to get an answer for...

i have a post 97 licence, meaning the 3.5t rule applies to my licence, but..

i now have a class 2 LGV licence, which means i am above and beyond the restrictions of the 3.5t rule and also surely gaining everything on the licence of a pre 97 licence?

so where the hell do i fall into the category of needing a b+e or not? even the dvla havent managed to give me a straight answer on this 1

i just want to know what i can drive, and what i can tow, on a post 97 licence, with a class 2 hgv addition

Rally Matt

Sorry, me not being more specific, yes if van is not towing then doesn't need the tacho but if you tow with a 3.5t then it has the potential to exceed the 3.5t limit and at that point needs a tacho if there is any reward element to its use, same with bigger vehicles its the reward element that is the bit they try and get you on!

With licences, I have a feeling that if you pass a test with anything other than HGV Class 1 you will still need to take an additional trailer entitlement test.

Its the additional entitlement to use a trailer that is the stumbling block for you not the basic weight issue. If you do do the trailer test, go for the biggest class you can and then it will include anything less but doesn't upwards though!

Steve Cooper

iTrader: (1)

so if you have the right liecence what would be the ideal towing vehicle to pull a trailor and 1200kg car to basically not bring attention to yourself. would a transit be best or a car?

Rally Matt

Something 4x4 is good as they usually have good tow capacity. I joined because I bought a Sierra XR4x4 which I also use as an extra towcar.

I would avoid late transits for towing with as they are gutless.

Other car with surprisingly high tow limit is a Vectra.

My advice is have something up front that looks a lot bigger and heavier than whats on trailer! LDV Maxus we have is a great tow van and they are not too expensive, I have had 2 x Iveco Daily vans but long overhang at rear can be a pain, espcially on steep bridges and it tight places.

Anything LR makes a good tow bus too. Avoid a lot of jap pick ups, they can't take towing, landcruisers are ok but most pick ups are so cheaply made they fall apart! Avoid Nissan Navara like a dose of the clap! Toffee axles & gearboxes and con rods are made from compressed dog shite

Make sure your choice also has a decent wheel base, longer is better. Maverick/Terrano sized stuff can get out of shape very quickly if you tow anything more than a garden trailer.

Also good trailer well kept, Brian James Trailers are excellent. Avoid home made or even worse ones that are converted caravan chassis! Tilt bed are nice to use but quite a bit heavier so if close to tow limit better to have a lighter trailer for a less stressful tow life! If possible get one with 13" wheels, more stable and better choice of tyres, trailer tyres have more sidewall plies than road tyres but are much better on trailers than car tyres. When you turn the tyre is under a huge strain on a trailer. You are also bound to clip a kerb at some point too so more sidewall protection is good.

Mark_

i asked a police man this once and he didnt have a clue,

im a hgv 1 driver so i can drive pretty much any combo,
what i wanted to know was if it was legal to tow a car on a tilt bed trailer with my mk4 golf gti on my licence

Steve Cooper

iTrader: (1)

we have been useing a swb fiat ducato,it seems to be doin the job ok just a little slugish up big hills. have been followed by a couple of police cars and they left us alone so hopefully we are ok.

Rally Matt

Ducato/Boxer/Relay are good pullers, SWB vans are still long enough to have good stability.

I wouldn't think about using a small car like a Golf to tow a car on a trailer. The plated weight for towing on the Golf is probably only 800KG! I bet the tilt bed trailer weighs nearly that!

Police know very little about the law, even less about traffic law.

Steve Cooper

iTrader: (1)

[quote=Rally Matt;4894808]Ducato/Boxer/Relay are good pullers, SWB vans are still long enough to have good stability.

I wouldn't think about using a small car like a Golf to tow a car on a trailer. The plated weight for towing on the Golf is probably only 800KG! I bet the tilt bed trailer weighs nearly that!

Police know very little about the law, even less about traffic law.[/quote

its not a new ducato its the old 2.8 non turbo, i dont no how a 2.8 can have such a small amount of power lol.
a mate of mine told me the police are getting stricter on how the cars are secured down?
you seem like the guy to ask tho.

Rally Matt

Any load must be securely fastened, we always use 4 ratchet straps, each rated at 3 tonnes and replace them every 2 years. (ours get a lot of use). The webbing is 2.5", I would avoid the narrow ones, they don't look enough although the breaking strain is probably fine.

Personally I don't like using straps around wheels, they often fall off of come loose as cars bounce on the trailer (wheels turn, dislodging the strap)

More often then not we have an MG ZR rally car on the trailer, we use the rear tow eye, pulling forwards to a rachet on each deck and then from the front on the holes in the sump guard that are front tow points back onto a rachet. So in effect there are 4 straps on a car. Our trailer also has front chocks bolted to the bed too to set the car position so its correctly balanced.

I think to a lot of people its how it looks, like I said the Police have almost no idea what is right/wrong especially when it comes to cars although they normally come fitted with an ego the size of a small country. I have worked with some on advanced driving courses and the sheer lack of any driving skill is astounding. (consider these are supposed to be the best too!)

When loading a car, ask youself if you would be happy following it with your family at 90MPH on a road, if you are less than 100% confident then make it better. Note legal speed on a motorway/dc with a trailer in UK is 60mph

vaughant

iTrader: (1)

Some valid points on this,might even be worth a sticky as it's such a grey area?it looks like I'm ok being an old bastard and passing in 93!!! I tow with a 4x4 and my trailor is mint,proper job with wireless winch ( total godsend), always good tyres,totally desired etc and no probs so far!!!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

To understand the law and become a lawyer you need a set of a levels and a law degree, to become a copper you need a couple of gcse's and to not have too many criminal convictions, so its hardly surprising that most of them struggle a bit given the lack of average education.