Shings

Evening all.

Right..

I am installing a new kitchen which will obviously run off its own circuit power wise.

New Colours to an old colours (modern flick switch) board - the chaps at work tell me this is fine as long as I label the board to identify that there is a mixture of old and new colours.

I want the circuit tested and signed off for Part P and I also want the rest of the house tested for safety.

I plan:
32amp Breaker
2.5mm TaE

The circuit will have
13amp Elec Oven
13amp Fridge Freezer
13Amp Washing machine
Microwave
Keetle
2 Further Double sockets for various kitchen appliances.

I have been told I also need to upgrade the earth to the incoming water main and gas meter to a 10mm earth to comply with Part P.

I am doing everything myself apart from final connections to the Consumer Unit.

Can anyone tell me if there is anything else I need to consider to get signed off for Part P?

I want to be able to do all the work, get one of the sparks at work to do the consumer unit stuff and then get someone in to test and cert the install.

Cheers

Jake

danneth

i would personally put the oven on its own supply

rest seems alright to me, just make sure you stick to the regs with regards to spacing of sockets away from sink, oven etc

Shings

I'm told I dont need to... but I appreciate what you're saying.

I dont think there are enough ways left on the board though to run a ring purely for the oven.

Dont I need to leave extra capacity on it or somet?

Do you know what the socket spacing is?

paul16v

Cooker should be on its own supply, minimum of a 6mm cable IIRC.

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

2.5 t&e, hopefully you'll be running the circuit as a ring if you're wanting to use a 32a breaker? As long as the old board has 30ma rcd protection at least on one side you'll be ok using the old fuseboard, and yeah just put a label on it (you can buy them) saying new colour wiring has been used. If you've got plenty of room in the fuseboard i'd probably run a seperate 16A circuit for the cooker just for better discrimination, it's not a problem runnning everything off the 32A if it will be easier though and as long as the oven is only a fan assisted one. You're right regarding the earthing, you'll need to run a 10mm to within 600mm of the water stopcock/gas meter or where the gas comes into the house and also upgrade the meter tails if they are undersized. If i was signing the work off so to speak i would do a periodic inspection on the whole house whereby as long as there was nothing nasty goin on in the rest of the installation you'd then have a clear certificate for the whole house! Otherwise i could just 'inspect' the new circuits you'd installed and test those only.
Bear in mind that the idea of part p isn't really for people to do their own work and then get it signed off......the idea was to stop people doing it in the first place! Hope some of that helps mate

tomoyb

iTrader: (3)

you only need a 6mm t+e and seperate supply if its a complete electric cooker

ie electric hobs

if its like most new set ups it will most likely be gas hob and electric oven,hence not much load and running it in 2.5 t+e and being on the existing ring main is fine

-beefy-

iTrader: (6)

speak to daz aka cragrat on here mate , the most qualifies sparky i know ,

heel see you right up to date with all the regs ect


beef

Shings

Yes a ring.

There is no RCD protection on the board - the chaps at work said I dont need to change the board as RCD is only a requirement for new installations and I technically amending an existing?

I dont think there is a lot of extra capacity in the board- I believe its 8 ways and the kitchen will be 5/8.

I do want a periodic inspection for the rest of the house doing as well.

Appreciate your comment re part P and diyers - but I'm not an ordinary diyer as I work for an M+E Contractor and take advise from the sparkys and the electrical engineers - prob is we dont do domestic so they're sketchy on part p.

Amusingly I have learnt I can buy the certificates myself - I just need someone to fill it in..

How much would you say is a fair rate to Part P cert my new circuit/periodical test the house?

J

Shings

yeh - gas hob single electric 13amp rated oven

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

Yeah that's fair enough mate.....you can probably imagine the calibre of work some people do that want signed off though lol!
You don't need to change the db for a 17th edition one.....but even under the 16th edition it was still a requirement for socket outlets that could be used outside to be covered by an rcd (i'm assuming you're not in a top floor flat) and was normal practice to put in a split loaded board with the sockets on an rcd. You're also installing a new circuit not utilising existing .
Depending what type of board you have it may be possible to put an rcbo in or failing that small 2way garage db's with an rcd are cheap! As a guide when we do periodics they're done on a room count, but a 3 bed standard house would be around the Ł140 mark which would include a ring bound computer printed certificate.

Shings

Yeh I can completely appreciate it.

Its a 2bed semi.
1 down stairs ring
1 up stairs ring
1 down stairs lighting radial
1 upstairs lighting radial
+ new kitchen ring.

RCBO - I've seen this mentioned before - how do I tell if I can fit one???

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

You say your mates at work tell you that an rcd is not required I assure you bud it is the only way I can see you wouldn't is if you are in a top floor flat and the sockets are wired using surface wiring,in trunking or conduit all of which I doubt

Not only are you instaling a new circuit but its in a 'hazardous area' (one that contains a bath,sink or shower)
Both require the installation to inspected at first and second fix stage by an odpm (part p) registered sparky
The hassle and inconvenience to both parties when he starts to tell you about prescribed zones and functional switching etc will mean in the long run it'll be cheaper,quicker and no offence mate but a better job
Please take my advise and get a sparks in to do it for you
I can advise how to do the job all day long but it doesn't mean it will be done how it should
I personally don't entertain 3rd party inspections as my registration means too much to me
Do what you do best go to work to pay him and let him do the his thing
Sorry don't want to be a grump but as said part p was brought about by the death of someone from dodgy kitchen wiring

Lee Reynolds

My sparkie wont do third party inspections either! Fook that!

danneth

while i agree with everything else you said lets not be fooled about part p it was brought in as another way to make money... there was never anything wrong with getting a qualified electrician in

danneth

not surprised if its for you...

cozzy940

as previously said your mate is wrong it should be rcd protected and installed by a qualified electrician,

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

An rcbo is an mcb/rcd combined into one, if you've got a newish board you may be able to get one that's compatible and will retrofit straight in mate. Note down the make/model of your db and ask a local wholesalers/have a look on the internet.

The guy above has basically backed up what i have said, and although i really do share his views on people doing their own work in reality we all know it happens hence why i was advising you on what 'can' be done to give you some sort of certification.

Some building inspectors if they know their onions may ask for an electrical installation certificate which you won't be able to get if you've done the work yourself! The route of doing a periodic on the whole installation is the only way round it that i consider kind of acceptable, and i wouldn't do it for just anyone to be honest. Regarding the size of your hous that would fall in the minimum charge periodic wise, so you shouldn't be paying anything over Ł150 imo, bearing in mind although it may sound quite expensive you're paying for knowledge rather than an install.....alot of people begrudge paying money for me to test installations as they feel they don't actually get anything at the end of it lol!

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

true mate i agree it is another steath tax,but it is here and for the moment here to stay (i personally do not agrea with many ways it was implemented and is policed (ha not!))

and yes there is nothing wrong with getting a qualified sparky in (that is what i am trying to advise) but in fairness he isnt and his workmates most on here will agree by their statements about rcds and new d/bs not being required are not domestic

am just trying to be sensible here why spend twice as long if not longer trying to do a job that someone else does day in day out and as when the day of his house sale comes around and the proud boast of i `wired it myself` is met by an awkward silence,now shings may be very capable but the phrase `every man to his job` most certainly applies

i have worked in so many houses where a bit of diy electrics has cost the customer more than twice what they saved for me to put it right

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

you could say the same about MOT`s there chap,is that not just a safety check end of the day (or it was to start with!!)

danneth

agreed, for the sake of getting someone in for 1-2 days just not worth the hassle

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

Lot that's often how i describe periodics to customers as it goes (kind of like an mot on your car), and yes they are basically a safety check

cossie col

sorry mate but if your asking everyone for advice you are not compitent enough to carry out this installation. There is no way i would ever sign work off carried out by someone else as you just can't tell wats gone on, cables in correct zone etc. Get a sparks in mate, job gets done 3 times quicker and you could just do a bit extra work to cover it and have a proper job at end of day

ben_frst

this part p is a pain in the ass yes it stops alot of dim wit burning there houses down but getting something signed off is a night mare all it states in the building code is the eletrical work is to be carried out but a qualifed eletrician or COMPITANT person but if your that compitant person with year of rewire experiance like myself but cant get anyone to sign it off then you have to sub the work and when you do get alot of rewire work you pay a premium for it and it bumps the price up for the customer

for example im currently doing a garage-annex conversion for a friend at a relativly cheap price and have now had to sub the eletrics to as the building inspector wants a part p cert when all the guy want is an extension of the down stairs ring the lighs are already the and and extractor for the bathroom the eletrician we used was a complete bell end took 2 weeks of excuses(lies) to do a 1-2 day job and wouldnt touch the eletrics unless he changed the consumer (which i hear is common practice) ive now got to go into work tomorrow to deal with an pissed off and ripped off customer will never reccomend a sparky again and from now on will get customers to use/find their own all this could have been solved if i/we could have done it ourselves grrr

need my own place doing soon (complete rewire down stairs and up light and socket rings/kitchen/cooker/garage) i could do this myself and have a few mates who are site sparks but with no part p so am pretty much fooked

what really could be involved in a part p inspection socket/light wire inspection continuity tests trunking routing visual there should be a goverment official that can do this like a building inspector???

rant over

Ben

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

you pay a `premium` as we have overheads (btw ever seen how much a plumber charges for gas work?) all i charge extra for when i do a full inspection is the notification costs

was your electrician by recommendation or seen in an ad ?

why arent they part p its not that hard (one of em must be to sign off their work on site)

apparently when part p was first discussed building inspectors were originally gonna do the inspections,but after the head honcho @ building control for the uk went round with one of the nic eic guys and some government official to see what exactly was involved in an inspection,they changed their minds and decided self-certification was the way to go,seeing as how sparkies are doing it anyway why give the building control more work etc etc


oh and spellchecker is your friend

Shings

Cheers guys...

I'm glad I struck a nerve with some of you - shows you're passionate about your work and is rare to come across in this day and age.

What I will do is get one of the guys at work to come and give me a hand to make sure its all nice and safe and find a part p tester to sign it off.

It is funny though I have been advised before that I may have trouble getting a simple Part P sign off as generally the tester will come and want things changing and want to do it them selves to charge more - which is the way it was explained to me- IE make faults up by praying on the un suspecting general public who's scared of electrics to get more than a simple test.



I must say though - thank you for all your help and advice chaps.

ben_frst

the electrician was someone I knew through a local company who we do a lot of work for he was still there today 10-2 so in total hes done about 5 hours work and still not finished, I do know another sparks who has his own company and has said he will now do all our work and just send one of his guys down for a set day rate so will be doing that in future

I have a gas safe plumber and to be honest he’s not that bad

Cragrat nice low blow there with the spelling .........................11pm worked a full day bothered!! abit bitter are we? the fact is there are tonnes of rip-off merchants in the building trade and I always feel hard done by if I have to call an electrician because they do the minimal work for the most cash and tbh its hardly rocket science you can learn it out of a book not forgetting 90%of them don’t give a sh*t about the next guy that’s why there cables get cut and the trunking gets filled with plaster+nails my favourite thing when I was a house basher was to cut the cables and push the end I cut off back in the trunking so they wire it up and nothing works

Alls spelZ & grammmrs checked 4 uz

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

^^^^^Are you bitter about somethin too mate, what trade are you qualified in? Electricians doing the least work for the most money......are you serious, you must have some very low charging tradesmen round your way
What is rocket science about any trade if you're gonna go down that route.....alot of things can be learnt in theory from a book, and from what you've written you might wanna go and buy a book and brush up your electricial knowledge, not that you should need one if it's all that easy eh

adduk

Im sorry mate if but the phrase "tbh its hardly rocket science you can learn it out of a book" is focused to the electrical trade then you are very mistaken and to be honest is abit insulting. I like many others spent 4 years in total learning the trade and i can assure you it isnt a walk in the park, in fact you are always learning and are forever having to keep updated with new regs and so on.

My views are to get someone in to do the job, like said it will be done in half the time and be done correctly. BUT as we all know people think they can do better and have the views that we are all out to rip them off so they do it,so be it but i for one wouldnt sign off peoples works if i hadnt installed it or at least been involved in the installation of the circuit.

If you werent aware that you should be installing a 30ma rcd for the circuit as it is a new instalation and therefore should be installed to the current iee regs then you shouldnt really be doing the job. I dont mean to offened anyone just thought id put my bit in.

cheers adam

danneth

mate your awesome.... i wish i was as cool as you

focusv8

Can you see why you get "Ripped off" now.
.

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

Yup I concur with focusv8

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

Bitter me no mate I'm stacked with work! I presume its cos of my moral standards (how's yours)

Sorry about the low blow but usually when I'm tired after working till 11pm I go to bed

So if it can all be learnt from a book can you tell me (from a book within 20 mins) when carrying out a fault current test and a result of 7k is measured will a c type breaker be suitable?

ben_frst

yes i am bitter been fooked around by loads of mickey mouse tradesmen most of them sparks but only one of them on my jobs (he wont be doing another) the rest on site

as for my qualifications

nvq lvl 3 mechanic

nvq lvl 2 plasterer(+ apprenticship)

my old mans a electircal engineer (nvq lvl 4 however is now in the states and has HVAC + other courses under his belt and even he admits its a piss easy job and hes on more money that sence)

as for if its so easy try it myself tbh i nearly did just got offered an apprenticship and took it



i guess i'll just keep my opinions to my self in future as i dont want any off you little girls getting your knickers in a twist



its only the internet

Cragrat

iTrader: (4)

Haha only the internet !! Have a look @ your posts pal we were merely advising for the best,you decided to put the world to rights
As for mickey mouse tradesmen you employed him to do the job get over it

Well I guess your dad is bigger than my dad now

Got the book out yet?

ESCYSCOTT

iTrader: (1)

any spark that does a PIR on an installation that someone else has done who he doesn't know or class as a competant person should be reported and struck off from their respective board (Napit, NICEIC etc)

I'm currently retraining to be a spark and I'm looking into every avenue and regulation, my brother in law is Part p Qualified and registered with NAPIT and he NEVER signs off work for anyone! He has a couple of guys that do jobs for him as he knows their work and oversees first and second fix, he signs their work off. It isn't worth losing your status for Ł140!!

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

Think you also want to recheck your facts and how you interpret things mate before you make such a sweeping statement......a periodic report can be done on any installation irrespective of who installed the wiring in the first place, and you certainly shouldn't be struck off for doing so lol!

A periodic is simply an assessment/report of an existing installation, it's not 'signing work off' mate, to do that you'd have to fill in an installation certificate and state that you had done the work yourself which indeed would be naughty

What i was getting at is that all i could or would do when someone else has done work, is test the whole installation and do a periodic report.....if that report showed the whole installation to be satisfactory then the installation should at least be safe, and appear to have been carried out to a good standard. I also menioned that some building inspectors etc won't accept these as sufficient certification, in which case obviously people run into problems, as i'd also said the idea of part p is to actually get an electrician to do the work not just test it afterwards.

If you're currently looking into every avenue and regulation, i'd suggest you do a LOT of homework and attend as many seminars etc held by people like the nic as possible, as things are interpreted by different people in so many ways it's unreal! Every one i've been to there has been heated discussions over things no-one can decide on!

focusv8

"Extraneous earth bonding"

Discuss ref; 14th,15th, 16th, 17th edition.

No,yes, no,yes, no, yes, although not in that order.


The 14th Edition was current when I started.

.

cozzy940

,

piss easy ??? how many years training to get the plaster to stick to the wall mate?

rstdave

iTrader: (3)

Might have known what your trade was gonna be lol, pity you didn't follow in your old mans footsteps by sound of it instead of spending all those years training to be a plasterer

cozzy940