Billabong

Mike R had exactly that done when his engine was bench dyno'd.

Mike's had a few engines on the bench dyno, and his tuners have extensive experience of bench dyno mapping and also have a rolling road.

JAMSPORT

But then Danny's car made it's power at 17 psi, not 29 psi with all the trouble that brings.

Truth is I can't remember what it made at the wheels. It should have been good (ie small losses) by simple virtue that the wheels are upright with being on a live axle with no camber that you always get under load with a cossie, but then yours is live too Dongle, so who knows how they might compare?

29 psi, should we have been daft enough to run it, and had been able to give it enough fuel to make any real use of the boost could have been obscene, given the motor's efficiency. Boost has a diminishing return though and, very often, 'less is more'. If more boost was always better then every racer would run crazy boost wouldn't they, Winkle?

Anonymous

Mine makes about 275-280 @ wheels at 18psi on ahmeds map....

Don't think danny's would be any difference really....made 320 @ wheels @ 2bar.

So what you are saying you can make any YB run @ 350bhp on low boost with a t34 just by the way you build the engine, yet turbo techics say its a 360-370 bhp turbo at 2bar

So an extra 12psi give you 10bhp.....i just can't see thats possible no matter how you map it.

think i will keep using karl, cause i know there aint any BS involved with the power figures cause we don't give a shit about power

If its fast then its fast

mrviper

streetracers thurmaston leicester

he is building my 2.1ZT

he has a spanking new 4wd roling road

POPEYE

amen

JAMSPORT

So you finally agree then that a rolling road is a valuable tool, seeing as your tuner has both? A rolling road is more expensive too so Harvey Gibbs also sees the importance of a rolling road.

QED.

Not sure how an aborted attempt at buying a ram 3000 has much to do with anything......except the fact that you accept that they are expensive (you needing an investor to buy one for you) and, as such, only those companies prepared to do the job properly would go to the trouble and expense of buying and installing one?

As for no way it gives that power, well you are of course entitled to your opinion, however, facts remain even though someone of your stature might not believe them. As for being 'full of shit' Whatever, you trumpet!

POPEYE

i quite like " you trumpet " aimed at gus
and " winkle " to dingy

JAMSPORT

Kind of glad you're not going to grace us with your presence Dodgy, we have quite enough to do without having to explain basic principles!

So there's a rolling road in Leicester, at last! Just as long as they know how to use it properly.

Billabong

Jambo, that's my first post on this thread and I wasn't joining in any argument (against yourselves), I was answering on behalf of Mike cos he'd hit his evening internet curfew

Yes, I personally think RR's can be a valuable tool, but I think I would prefer to have an engine mapped on a bench dyno, then tweaked in car at Brunters (would be a personal preference and not a dig at the way you choose to map your vehicles) some of 'your' cars have very respectable results (times/speeds) so you seem to know what you are doing - and it wouldn't do if everyone did things the same way all the time.....

EDITED: due to keyboard trouble...

JAMSPORT

Feel the vibe Popeye...........

Tonight's been amusing....

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Wayne / Jambo,
To who-ever I am speaking to . This was my first post on this thread, so I am confused as to where your comments are coming from about me jumping from one side of the fence to the other ?

Regarding your additional comments about chassis dynos (especially the coast down losses), you have now told me all I need to know about your level of expertise.

FYI AVA who design and build rolling roads will only give out at wheel figures, as the ONLY way to calculate transmission loss is to SAE bench dyno an engine, install it in the car and then measure the power at the wheels and subtract the two. Anyone who thinks differently is clearly dillusional and doesn't understand the concepts of a rolling road.

Also, as Bill has kindly pointed out, my last engine was dynoed with the exhaust system in place, thus giving as close as possible to the in-car set-up. Obviously this is still short of the SAE method which has all the other ancilliaries bolted on as well (airbox, power-steering and alternator etc). Even then, the engine still has to be checked in the car, as the engine bay is a completely different environment to the nice controlled one of the dyno cell.

My car was then checked at VERY high speed and the fuelling / ignition adjusted to suit (I advocate the use of Bruntingthorpe for this), with AFR and "manual" det cans. The car has done 20k miles and even on track uses less than a 1/4 of a litre of oil all day.

Incidentally, and this is not meaning to be disrespectful, but I don't know anyone that has heard of you, and with the mapping world being a close knit one, I find this puzzling .

JAMSPORT

Fair enough Billabong, respect is mutual.

Common sense will prevail. Never argue with an idiot! (wise words from an old person)

Billabong

Oh, Mike got another pass POXy internet.......

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Sub standard compared to hiring out Brunters and spending a day or two there yes!!!

It's horses for courses (and budgets) really, you would be silly to presume you can replicate everything on a road test, I got the checkup that I wanted on the road so there is no problem there.

BUT I also remember having a lot of trouble getting grip at Power Engineering with 2 people in the boot, and the car never managed to load up enough to hit anywhere near full boost on their rollers. (Recorded around 25psi if that, whereas on the road it flew off the end of the MAP sensor at 30.6psi and then some)

Personally I think (and I hope people like Dingy/other NMSers can agree with me on this to some extent) you cannot beat what Rod did with his Saph by mapping it on an engine dyno then spending a lot of private time at Brunters checking it over and tweaking/live mapping presumably.

mrviper

Street Racers
171, Church Hill Rd, Thurmaston, Leicester, Leicestershire LE4 8DH
Tel: 0116 269 8885

Chairman

What roads do you drive 100 + Mph??? Who pays all the speeding tickets, and are children playing nearby that you might hit?

RichardPON

Of course, the children play football in the middle of Bruntingthorpe all the time don't they?

There's no point trying to take moral high ground on this issue - the mapping is what's in question here.

Also Jambo, and as far as I'm aware, Harvey hasn't used that rolling road for anything other than small stationary fault diagnosis at low speed for years.

Chairman

People have already stated that they drive the cars ON THE ROAD, and have had to slow down for other road users..
My issue was, how can you set up a car in this manner, busy avoiding traffic, and roundabouts, the odd goat in a farmyard etc etc..

Dont drain everybody with your ball sucking comments... blowdog

ImaRacing 700

PON.....I dont think the bloke was saying that...i think he was saying tuners that MAP on the road Also since when have you the authority to question tuning methods?

Too many people get involved in things they have no experience of on here!...Oh before you comment that i am one...regardless of my brain size...i came i saw i conquered

RichardPON

Oh good lord! The insults are really flying

Anyway, for the people who are slightly more mature, they might be able to turn this into a worthy topic.

I think you'll find that the people who live map on the road take extreme care, and are fully aware of the dangers.

You give people no credit - do you really think an experienced live mapper would take the car out to be mapped at 5:30 rush hour, or do it in heavily built up/pedestrianised areas?

I await the reply that you've never broken the speed limit in your life, and always take maximum care when YOU'RE driving.

Oh, and just so you feel at home, grow up you cretinous moron (there, feel better? )

Chairman

Only took one post for you to lower yourself to my "immature Cretinous moron" level though didnt it...

anyway im nearly 30.. any more mature and id be dead...

Chairman

Fully aware of the dangers?? so there is danger involved then..

Dont think i would be happy for someone to drive my car at speed while trying to set it up..

Are you saying they just quickly pop to bruntingthorpe to do every car then?


Thats got nothing to do with anything, im not trying to live map a car at speed..

And if theres a 30 limit, i adhere to it.. I dont want someone elses injuries on my consience

Rs Craig

so these people that map on the rolling road never break the speed limit on the road/motorway????

Chairman

Well, is there any need to.. as theyve set it up on a rolling road, so they dont have to speed,

The issue still is that people are arguing about a rolling road under safe controlled conditions is not a good way to tune and setup a car,
and that driving the car while setting it up is the better option...

I know what i would prefer a company to do.

Insidentally, do they have to just quickly pull over to adjust the timing before they carry on down the M6? LOL!

Anonymous

we map the car in 1st gear at nms mate, so its never above 60

Chairman

Haha look at this smiley... ideal for this post....



haha

RichardPON

Three things.

1. Clearly you've never had a car live mapped, so in most cases YOU would be driving, whilst the mapper was in the passenger seat concentrating on what THEY were doing.

2. Of course they're fully aware of the danger you plum - driving any car on the road at any time carries with it an element of danger!

3. Everyone has the right to choose where they take their car to, of course. I just choose the better option

At the end of the day, no-one is saying that a rolling road is not a good way to tune the car - it's just not the only or the best way. The simple fact remains that no matter how good the rollers are, they cannot 100% accurately recreate on road conditions.

Stavros

WTF Thatn alone is enough for nobody to take you serious ever

Nearly 30? Your faceparty profile you use to try and crack onto the schoolgirls says your 26
http://faceparty.com/chairmancx

You seem to have a Theres Somthing About Mary "Sperm Perm" in the pic too

Chairman

whatever...

Making stupid comments like that wont get you anywhere either...

Think before you post mate, you just made yourself look like a twat.

True about the age thing on faceparty though, that needs updating..
I dont even use it anymore its such a drain.

SapphyMike

I have nothing technical to add here.

I do have one word tho.

supercalifragilisticexpiallydosush.

Anonymous

Theres a 30mph speed limit on the a45 ?

where

and why the fuck would people be on the a45 anyway....

fuck the speedlimits as far i am concerned...


as yoda says....

[dingy]fuck yes, lets ave it [/dingy]

Rs Craig

mr chairman wake up hale the rolling road

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

In my mind, the ONLY way to do it is engine dyno / Bruntingthorpe. Removes ALL guesswork.

Rolling roads are good for two things - diagnostics / pub bullshit* (*where flywheel figures are quoted).

Some more interesting reading .

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/trans.htm

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Mike, surely if high ACTs were damaging an engine then the mapping is at fault because the ignition should be backing off!!!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Phil you muppet, BBR is just stating that power runs can actually damage a car if everything is not properly checked and monitored. How many rolling roads do you know of that monitor the ACTs when carrying out power runs?

How many people's car's on here do you think are actually properly mapped 1% or 2%?

Phil

iTrader: (1)

As it's a Ford site you could probably count them on one hand

Everyone else got cheap chips off eBay

Chairman

This post has turned ino a right mess.. dunno where dingy got the A45 from...

at the end of the day.... I DONT CARE... No one has lost a limb.. its not a biggie.

Im awake now Mr craig

Have no view on the fan thing,
Interesting to see how many views and opinions people have had, obviously it must work for both to some extent, or people would have gone out of business.

We need stephen hawkins to tell us the answer.. maybe we could put his wheelchair on the rollers.. hahaha!

WAYNE SCHOFIELD

I know I said in my first post that it was to be my last but the total bollox quoted from BBR by Mike Rainbird is total nonesense and has prompted me to retort.

Use your loafs guys......

With air density at only 1.4 kg/m cubed(ish) and water at 999-1030 kg/m cubed (depending upon impurities) and with water having a much higher specific heat capacity, why oh why would anyone even try to take control of IATs using air on an engine with possible charge air temp issues? If you use water you can easily regulate the IATs from temps well below ambient up to whatever IATs will top out at. That way you can check your compensation curves are good for different ambients. (ie do the job properly)

If you want I can give you IATs of -7deg C for up to three hours on an engine of typically 450bhp output (I do LOTS of 993 turbos brought to me from around the world so needed to create the ability to simulate all climates). If you give me enough notice I can chill the coolant in the tank low enough to run down to -7 deg C using supplimentary intercoolers to take TOTAL control of IATs. If you need lower temps than this I can do that too, but I have to order the Nitrogen from the Cryogenics people a fortnight before if you want serious sub-zero work for a longer period of time.

You can use a supplemenatary intercooler and plumb it into the system or fit tanks onto stock coolers if it's better to do so. Check the F40 pic (linked) and you'll see what I mean. You can clearly see the yellow coolant hoses running to and from modified stock coolers. The only reason I'm off to Elvington with this car is to make sure that the IATs are not much HOTTER on the track than they were on the dyno, and to see that the compensation curves I have programmed are therefore relevant for the application.

For a princely sum of £3000/ day I can have the use of an industrial facility used by most of the major manufacturers in Europe to give you ambients as low as -25 degC for as long as you want- it's a £5M R&D facility, yes boys, with a ROLLING ROAD (that cleverly uses it's generated brake heat to keep ice from forming on the rollers) so that's why it's £3000/ day to use. Some teams (mainly the Andros Trophy boys) are happy to pay the money in persuit of excellence but it is awfully expensive really for the likes of you and I who don't really need it!

Some of you have obviously never used a GOOD rolling road as I have repeatability to within 1 bhp on most motors no problem at all. On GOOD rolling roads flywheel figures are MORE accurate than wheel figures as there is creep over time with wheel figures due to temperature change in the trans and tyres, but this does not show on flywheel figures as it is measured out on the returns, yes Mike Rainbird, it really does work very well- you really should try it. The world is NOT flat either boys! (Although those bog trotters who have never left Norfolk would surely argue about that all day on some forum or other) Duh-oh!

As for pub BS, well I don't bother going in pubs as I don't drink and can't stand the BS that you get in pubs, it's so similar to the BS you get on discussion forums!!!!!

The fact is I enjoy a very good reputation amongst the PROPER racing community and have many repeat customers. My work has won countless championships over the years and, as they say, "when the flag drops..... the bulsh*t stops", be that paddock, pub or forum bulsh*t I guess.

If you don't believe that the job can be done properly on rollers then you are missing out on a very flexible tool when correctly used. If some baffoon has misused a rolling road and not got good results it is much more likely to have been his fault, not that of the dyno. If he has done damage too, then he has not thought properly about the job in hand and done the calcs with regard to the energy flows within the control volume (ie how much energy is going to be intoroduced to the control volume and how best to keep it controlled).

The F40's motor had been on Mountune's Engine dyno and came off it running very poorly indeed. It was chokingly rich at low speed and washing the bores for sure, was totally undriveable when cold, had no progression to speak of, insufficient accel enrichment (you CANNOT do transients well on an engine dyno) , had 50 bhp less than stock(!) and was running much more advance than needed- I took out an average of 7 deg before losing any power! It had also had many hours on the track in the hands of the chaps from Pectel (whos T6M ECU it uses) but, in the end, it came to me to be put right And right it now is with a smooth, flexible and safe 190 bhp more than when it came.

I can assure you that much of the above was to do with the operators however, not the dyno being used. Any tool used is only ever as good as the person using it. You all know that, surely? "Give a monkey and spanner and you don't get a mechanic.......". Having the ability to surf the 'net for information with regard to engine mapping does not make you a mapper either, but, strangely, since the increased use of the 'net, everyone seems to be an 'expert' in my field and yet, I do seem to get an awful lot of jobs to 'finish off' after some dipstick has 'had a go' himself.

An engine dyno is a good tool too, but it's scope is very limited. You can basically get about a third of the job done on one and that's your lot. No transients. No overruns. No progressions.

You can make your choices, I will make mine. But then I do this job for REAL all day, every day, and have done for many years with many wins. Does that not tell any of you anything? Only someone in a truly similar position should even consider questioning my area of expertese. If you are a structural engineer I would not dream of questioning whether that bridge parapet is strong enough- I just take it that you are bound to know much better than I do at YOUR job. Do not do the same with me thanks, just because you have a vague interest in tuning or sell a few chips, K&Ns, noisy exhausts and window tints...... It does not make any kind of expert..... Any idiot can put whatever they like on the 'net.... It does not neccessarily mean that it's true!

Check the link to see F40 coolers plumbed in......


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...eld/f40022.jpg

churchy

Shit, no wonder you have 2 posts Mr Schofield, give my regards to Phil and Gordon.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Wayne,
Thank you for posting, you have just PROVEN my point . Firstly, it is a pleasure to see someone take into account the IACTs (something I have been harping on about for years and hence why I introduced the use of the ACT gauge into the public domain ). However, this is you - how many operators do you know that take this into account or take the cooling of the IACTs as seriously as you do? I could count them on two fingers of one hand , and is precisely my point for posting the BBR comment. 99% of all rolling roads have a fan that only just about keeps the coolant at an acceptable level . I've only seen one publically available rolling road that had what I deemed to be sufficient cooling (AVA in Glasgow), and it is PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE rolling roads that we are talking about (so am puzzled as to why you are bringing into the topic the use of an idustrial facility that the normal man in the street would NEVER have access to ).

Given that, you have to admit that even in your experience YOU ARE UNIQUE in your attention to detail with rolling roads, ipso facto, unless everyone takes the same care as you do, they are in fact a pile of wank .

And you can be as insulting as you want, but if your think that flywheel calculated figures are anything other than bollocks, then I'm amazed at how you got where you claim to be today .

Agree that engine dynos can only do a third of the job, hence why Bruntingthorpe is ESSENTIAL for finishing mapping off - something I have ALWAYS advocated . So I'm with you all the way in that regard...