Best Tuner around leicester?
15-01-2005, 04:08 PM
#42
It Wasnt Me!
yup it does, but im sure if they knew a prob was their or they didnt have bout 20 cars to go through that day with only one thing in mind when they on the RR they would of noticed 
When you commin up anyhoo? an for anythin in perticular or jus a nose
When you commin up anyhoo? an for anythin in perticular or jus a nose
15-01-2005, 05:26 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by JAMBO
Please excuse my manor but how many RS Turbos have you set up RichardPON?
2. Whether I have set up 50 RS Turbos or not does not detract from the fact that you cannot 100% recreate all road conditions on the rolling road.
3. ................ and your point is?
15-01-2005, 05:55 PM
#50
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15-01-2005, 06:06 PM
#51
Originally Posted by RichardPON
Originally Posted by JAMBO
Please excuse my manor but how many RS Turbos have you set up RichardPON?
2. Whether I have set up 50 RS Turbos or not does not detract from the fact that you cannot 100% recreate all road conditions on the rolling road.
3. ................ and your point is?
Take your car to well lane
16-01-2005, 02:39 PM
#52
Thats a bit of an off thing to say if they were'nt even asked to look for faults Dingy? 
Had AVA's customer not replied to you and made us all aware it was just a power run, peeps would presume you asked em to find the fault after driving from Derbyshire to Glasgow and theyd failed you arse
Had AVA's customer not replied to you and made us all aware it was just a power run, peeps would presume you asked em to find the fault after driving from Derbyshire to Glasgow and theyd failed you arse
21-01-2005, 02:24 PM
#53
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I was directed to this thread by a collegue who thought I'd find it amusing...........
So you can map a car on the road accurately can you. Er no.
I do ECU mapping all day every day and my cars have won six championships last year alone including Brit Car, Belcar, Porsche Club, Rallycross stock hatch (won every single round), Rallycross modsaloons and BMW Khumo.
You don't win races and championships with cars that do not give good power and you do not win championships with cars that blow up.
You CANNOT tell on the road that your engine is running with optimum ignition values as the values are often short of the point at which det sets in. It is also VERY dangerous, for yourself and the general public, and if you are happy for a 'tuner' to run your car in excess of 100mph on the public road then you , by vertue of the fact that you know that it is being done, makes you jointly liable for any DEATHS that might occur from this outragous activity. I am sure that any insurance company would invalidate any claim and this would leave you paying out for the rest of your life both fiscally and with guilt. Go make your choice!
Plug ionisation equipment will tell you much better than det cans if det is occurring but even these, a snip at eight grand, do not tell you when peak power is being made. For this you NEED to use a dyno.
Fuelling is simple enough in either scenario. A combination of wide band lambda and a Gas Analyser with a high volume pump will tell you what you need to know. You all SHOULD know that there is more to setting up an engine than just fuelling.
'Dynamic pressure' is what is responsible for the potential rise in pressure at high speed. The equasion for dynamic pressure ( in pascals) is '0.5 x fluid desity(in kg/meter cubed) x the speed squared (speed in meters/sec). This does not take into account the fact that the airbox is not designed to make perfect use of dynamic pressure so, by that vertue, the pressure in real life will be lower and could even be negative.
So, in regard to the comments made about the rise in pressure in the air box, You do the sums. You might next consider that the atmosphere we sit about in is generally accepted to be 101,300 Pascals. Compare the numbers with atmospheric values and you will see that basically, until you are doing over 150 mph, it makes three fifths of sod all difference- even in a perfect world. You might also consider that on a Cosworth system, using a MAP sensor as a load reference, any such pressure is compensated for anyway! 'Mute point' I think they call it.
As for the Depression created behind the car causing scavenging behind the exhaust- OH REALLY! Show us a relavant equasion then! Just how fast do you think a car goes compared to the speed of the gas exiting the tailpipe? Why do you think the F1 boys have done so much work with regard to positioning of the exhaust outlets so that it increases downforce on an F1 Car? Why would this be so if it were not exiting rearward faster than the car goes. Hot gas is, of course less dense than cold so this reduces the effect. Hot gas is also more viscous which also detracts from the effect but still the F1 chaps, who I am led to believe do actually know what they're doing, use the high speed exhaust gas to increase down force.
They also use dynos, a lot, by the way.
Fact is that there is some importance to TRACK testing (I am off to Elvington myself with a 593 bhp F40 next week, all being well) but the vast majority of PROFESSIONAL mapping is done on dynos. Period. No point arguing, you will lose.
I expect that there will be a plethora of replies to this post, some with limited merit, and some with none.
I am very keen to separate myself from other 'engine mappers' who are getting the industry a bad name through poor, dangerous, practices. They can afford to charge less money for a job because they have not made the necessary investment to do the job safely and properly. It makes me wonder where else corners may have been cut with their practices that the customer might not be aware of. I hope I do not get 'tarred with the same brush' as some other people claiming to do a proper job.
I am here posting just the once only to try to put the record straight between the professionals, the amateurs, those who understand and the generally misled! I am not here to plug my services, sell my wares, have bits of flash or java running through what I offer onscreen before your eyes. I never advertise anywhere because I do not have to. Reputation keeps me busy enough for me not to have any spare time left to plug my stuff on any forum- let alone host one!
Have a nice argument boys!
So you can map a car on the road accurately can you. Er no.
I do ECU mapping all day every day and my cars have won six championships last year alone including Brit Car, Belcar, Porsche Club, Rallycross stock hatch (won every single round), Rallycross modsaloons and BMW Khumo.
You don't win races and championships with cars that do not give good power and you do not win championships with cars that blow up.
You CANNOT tell on the road that your engine is running with optimum ignition values as the values are often short of the point at which det sets in. It is also VERY dangerous, for yourself and the general public, and if you are happy for a 'tuner' to run your car in excess of 100mph on the public road then you , by vertue of the fact that you know that it is being done, makes you jointly liable for any DEATHS that might occur from this outragous activity. I am sure that any insurance company would invalidate any claim and this would leave you paying out for the rest of your life both fiscally and with guilt. Go make your choice!
Plug ionisation equipment will tell you much better than det cans if det is occurring but even these, a snip at eight grand, do not tell you when peak power is being made. For this you NEED to use a dyno.
Fuelling is simple enough in either scenario. A combination of wide band lambda and a Gas Analyser with a high volume pump will tell you what you need to know. You all SHOULD know that there is more to setting up an engine than just fuelling.
'Dynamic pressure' is what is responsible for the potential rise in pressure at high speed. The equasion for dynamic pressure ( in pascals) is '0.5 x fluid desity(in kg/meter cubed) x the speed squared (speed in meters/sec). This does not take into account the fact that the airbox is not designed to make perfect use of dynamic pressure so, by that vertue, the pressure in real life will be lower and could even be negative.
So, in regard to the comments made about the rise in pressure in the air box, You do the sums. You might next consider that the atmosphere we sit about in is generally accepted to be 101,300 Pascals. Compare the numbers with atmospheric values and you will see that basically, until you are doing over 150 mph, it makes three fifths of sod all difference- even in a perfect world. You might also consider that on a Cosworth system, using a MAP sensor as a load reference, any such pressure is compensated for anyway! 'Mute point' I think they call it.
As for the Depression created behind the car causing scavenging behind the exhaust- OH REALLY! Show us a relavant equasion then! Just how fast do you think a car goes compared to the speed of the gas exiting the tailpipe? Why do you think the F1 boys have done so much work with regard to positioning of the exhaust outlets so that it increases downforce on an F1 Car? Why would this be so if it were not exiting rearward faster than the car goes. Hot gas is, of course less dense than cold so this reduces the effect. Hot gas is also more viscous which also detracts from the effect but still the F1 chaps, who I am led to believe do actually know what they're doing, use the high speed exhaust gas to increase down force.
They also use dynos, a lot, by the way.
Fact is that there is some importance to TRACK testing (I am off to Elvington myself with a 593 bhp F40 next week, all being well) but the vast majority of PROFESSIONAL mapping is done on dynos. Period. No point arguing, you will lose.
I expect that there will be a plethora of replies to this post, some with limited merit, and some with none.
I am very keen to separate myself from other 'engine mappers' who are getting the industry a bad name through poor, dangerous, practices. They can afford to charge less money for a job because they have not made the necessary investment to do the job safely and properly. It makes me wonder where else corners may have been cut with their practices that the customer might not be aware of. I hope I do not get 'tarred with the same brush' as some other people claiming to do a proper job.
I am here posting just the once only to try to put the record straight between the professionals, the amateurs, those who understand and the generally misled! I am not here to plug my services, sell my wares, have bits of flash or java running through what I offer onscreen before your eyes. I never advertise anywhere because I do not have to. Reputation keeps me busy enough for me not to have any spare time left to plug my stuff on any forum- let alone host one!
Have a nice argument boys!
21-01-2005, 03:25 PM
#57
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As I am an ECU designer,
I would dearly love to make my proffesional opinion about the contents of certain posts.
However, when ever I do, make such valid non insulting comments,
I end up being on the end of a torrent of abuse and sarcasm.
This site is a fantastic place to share and learn information and I am happy to help
anyone who requires such knowledge.
I have even learned a few things myself as I dont claim to be perfect.
It is a real shame many people are misguided, narrow minded and believe
all their particular tuner's ways are the only way and nothing else matters.
I have worked with MANY of the well known engine mappers in this country
at various points in my carear and NO two of them work the same way
but the end result is the same.
Ok .... Cue the haters.....
I would dearly love to make my proffesional opinion about the contents of certain posts.
However, when ever I do, make such valid non insulting comments,
I end up being on the end of a torrent of abuse and sarcasm.
This site is a fantastic place to share and learn information and I am happy to help
anyone who requires such knowledge.
I have even learned a few things myself as I dont claim to be perfect.
It is a real shame many people are misguided, narrow minded and believe
all their particular tuner's ways are the only way and nothing else matters.
I have worked with MANY of the well known engine mappers in this country
at various points in my carear and NO two of them work the same way
but the end result is the same.
Ok .... Cue the haters.....
21-01-2005, 03:30 PM
#58
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simon you sound paranoid pal we no that no 1 works the same so what 1 person says is right is wrong to another there is always more than 1 way to do a job 
we no that no 1 works the same so what 1 person says is right is wrong to another there is always more than 1 way to do a job
21-01-2005, 04:06 PM
#59
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Totally agree with you Wayne and its funny that your view seems to coincide with ALL the manufacturers practices. (didn.t get to speak to God about it just yet, I'll check his view at the weekend, but I figure endangering innocent peoples lives will not go down too well in his eyes. )
Yes there is a place for real world testing, but the M6 is not the place for this...LOL
Yes there is a place for real world testing, but the M6 is not the place for this...LOL
21-01-2005, 04:56 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
Whos that geezer and what he charge for mapping?
"We have our own on site mapper Wayne Schofield, who has years of experience mapping the afore mentioned set-ups."
21-01-2005, 05:00 PM
#61
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Thats a bit of an off thing to say if they were'nt even asked to look for faults Dingy?
Had AVA's customer not replied to you and made us all aware it was just a power run, peeps would presume you asked em to find the fault after driving from Derbyshire to Glasgow and theyd failed you arse
Had AVA's customer not replied to you and made us all aware it was just a power run, peeps would presume you asked em to find the fault after driving from Derbyshire to Glasgow and theyd failed you arse
was a joke....
car was ok driving to glasgow
21-01-2005, 05:07 PM
#63
Originally Posted by peteh
Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
Whos that geezer and what he charge for mapping?
21-01-2005, 05:16 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by JAMBO
We are not talking about the engine I built in Danny B's car are we???
What, did a 12.1 on "half boost".LOL
What, did a 12.1 on "half boost".LOL
, maybe you can answer some of dingy's questions.
21-01-2005, 05:17 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by dingy
t34 made 347 @ 17psi
So HOW MUCH ignition was he running and on what fuel ?
So HOW MUCH ignition was he running and on what fuel ?
Obviously "optimum" ignition as verified on the dyno when mapped on Optimax fuel.
QED, I suppose.........
21-01-2005, 05:23 PM
#69
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TBH Wayne has brought up some valid points 
I am a mapper of S8 and on my own beast can only get to 3rd gear mapping as its just too fast in 4th/5th gear simple as that......I refuse to endanger others lives whlst trying to map at stupid speeds...even if i had a co pilot taking notes and adjusting!To me OTHER peoples lifes are too short.
So there is some credance to when i said that a screamer pipe pointed at the ground at 170mph plus COULD cause air flow disruptions to hinder stability?..By going on F1 teams and the way they point the exhaust outlets i beleive i am correct....Too many wannabes on here i am afraid
I am a mapper of S8 and on my own beast can only get to 3rd gear mapping as its just too fast in 4th/5th gear simple as that......I refuse to endanger others lives whlst trying to map at stupid speeds...even if i had a co pilot taking notes and adjusting!To me OTHER peoples lifes are too short.So there is some credance to when i said that a screamer pipe pointed at the ground at 170mph plus COULD cause air flow disruptions to hinder stability?..By going on F1 teams and the way they point the exhaust outlets i beleive i am correct....Too many wannabes on here i am afraid
21-01-2005, 05:56 PM
#72
Not really sure what the engine has to do with it to be honest, its the amount of air the t34 flows @ 17psi don't it ?
as a t34 is a 360-380 bhp turbo @ 2 bar then your getting almost its peak power @ a little over 1 bar
as a t34 is a 360-380 bhp turbo @ 2 bar then your getting almost its peak power @ a little over 1 bar
21-01-2005, 06:21 PM
#76
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Missed the point again pal.
The point I am making is Danny B's car made
347 bhp @ 17 psi, due to ENGINE spec, combined with a proper rolling road map.
Not 347 @ 25 psi mapped down the M11...........
The point I am making is Danny B's car made
347 bhp @ 17 psi, due to ENGINE spec, combined with a proper rolling road map.
Not 347 @ 25 psi mapped down the M11...........
21-01-2005, 06:25 PM
#77
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Although i agree to a certain extent here to Jamsport........i dont agree with RR mapping as its only really a diagnostic tool and bullshit power figure maker....DYNO is the only way to go if serious and then fiddle with it on the road under your own driving style...like if you are a nutter twiddle the map on the road at limiter in 5th ........BUT remember i would only go dyno if there wasnt a base map availible for my own spec....then i map on road to my driving.
........BUT remember i would only go dyno if there wasnt a base map availible for my own spec....then i map on road to my driving.
21-01-2005, 06:27 PM
#78
Mine was mapped on the dyno and made 350 @ 29psi....
Nothing to do with head restriction....
Turbo can only flow so much air, what point am i missing, you buy some rollers then suddenly a t34 can make more power.....mmmmm
RR should be @ wheels figure anyway cause its a guess to flywheel
Nothing to do with head restriction....
Turbo can only flow so much air, what point am i missing, you buy some rollers then suddenly a t34 can make more power.....mmmmm
RR should be @ wheels figure anyway cause its a guess to flywheel
21-01-2005, 06:30 PM
#79
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Surely as a rolling road tuner you'd know better than to start quoting guestimate flywheel figues though
On a more serious note, good debate lads
I've been out with Karl setting my own car up and I must say it is very difficult to test things on the roads, trying to keep grip and the pwoer down long enough to see all the revs before you brake to avoid hitting the back of someone etc..
With enough patience it can be done on the roads, but my personal 'money no object' preference would be to map it in a proper engine dyno cell for all the testing (at absolutely every possible load point etc) and then tweak the map at Brunters or somewhere similar to check everything is fine 'in car'
A question to the mappers, can you see things like ignition etc having to be altered between a dyno cell and road situation or is it mainly fuelling/charge temps that differ...
On a more serious note, good debate lads
I've been out with Karl setting my own car up and I must say it is very difficult to test things on the roads, trying to keep grip and the pwoer down long enough to see all the revs before you brake to avoid hitting the back of someone etc..
With enough patience it can be done on the roads, but my personal 'money no object' preference would be to map it in a proper engine dyno cell for all the testing (at absolutely every possible load point etc) and then tweak the map at Brunters or somewhere similar to check everything is fine 'in car'
A question to the mappers, can you see things like ignition etc having to be altered between a dyno cell and road situation or is it mainly fuelling/charge temps that differ...
21-01-2005, 06:36 PM
#80
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Originally Posted by dingy
And dannyb is set up for the strip so 12.1 means jack all
Dingy my car was running 117.8 and 118.1 and 117.9 in 3 runs after each other, peak boost SPIKE 19psi held 17.5 which drops slightly at 6100rpm to 16/17psi. the car weighed 2813lbs with fuel and driver, do the math and you'll see the power at such a girl boost level.
RScraig I used wayne's service as its a full no bullshit map, we didn't even talk about power figure's, what I wanted was a strong reliable tune up that would be concistant, that he delivered
out of 34 cars I finished 3rd in the UK street racers series despite having problems first round which lost me points!! You guys can spend all day on here chatting shit but more and more origonal users are leaving due to having to read the shit being posted and its a great shame as this USED to be such a GREAT site.