R&D 6 Speed Dogbox - broken 3rd time
13-09-2009, 01:42 AM
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R&D 6 Speed Dogbox - broken 3rd time
Hi,
i have an R&D 6 speed straight-cut dogbox fitted in my EsCos.
i bought it new 3 years ago.
and since then i have broken it every year.
this time the 4th gear go away. but when we opened the box, i can see some small (2mmx2mm) and same bigger (4mmx4mm) damages on the surfaces of most gears.
some peaople tell me, that this is called "beetings". and thats exactly like it look for,
i have no oil cooling fitted. i think i need that. because of same long rides on the autobahn.
but whats also wrong ?
is it correct that A.G. in his focus Cossi with 800++hp is using the same box ????
i do approx 20 Quatermile runs per year and some laps on the hhr and the nüring.
i do 10.000km/ year complete.
I have no semislicks. only normal yokohama avs road tyres.
the car is doing r.a. 720hp/600lb.ft.
where can i get the parts for rebuild or where can i bring the box to do that ?
is there a possibility to strenghten the gears, like special material or producing methods ?
Unluckily, i have no pics of the "beetings" know for upload !
thx for help and answer
i have an R&D 6 speed straight-cut dogbox fitted in my EsCos.
i bought it new 3 years ago.
and since then i have broken it every year.
this time the 4th gear go away. but when we opened the box, i can see some small (2mmx2mm) and same bigger (4mmx4mm) damages on the surfaces of most gears.
some peaople tell me, that this is called "beetings". and thats exactly like it look for,
i have no oil cooling fitted. i think i need that. because of same long rides on the autobahn.
but whats also wrong ?
is it correct that A.G. in his focus Cossi with 800++hp is using the same box ????
i do approx 20 Quatermile runs per year and some laps on the hhr and the nüring.
i do 10.000km/ year complete.
I have no semislicks. only normal yokohama avs road tyres.
the car is doing r.a. 720hp/600lb.ft.
where can i get the parts for rebuild or where can i bring the box to do that ?
is there a possibility to strenghten the gears, like special material or producing methods ?
Unluckily, i have no pics of the "beetings" know for upload !
thx for help and answer
Last edited by evo700; 13-09-2009 at 01:44 AM.
13-09-2009, 08:24 AM
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R + D Dogbox
Ag motorsport has used the overdrive version for a few years from 600 to 700 bhp with hardly any major issues, the odd broken gear but thats to be expected under such driving conditions, he fitted an oil cooler at the later end to try to stop the wear caused by heat but moved to FFD before a result could be taken from the test.. Charlie Shaw on the other hand used the direct top version for years and had a life of hell with it, fixing fourth, one lap after warm up lap and bang fourth again, excuse after excuse from rodger from r+d. turns out it was a bad batch of 4rth gears, he has now moved onto FFD.
13-09-2009, 08:28 AM
#3
r+d boxes wont stand up to launches
the power and torque you have is just going to keep going through r+d's they just wont stand up to the punishment that launches and that torque throw at it !
a ffd would be the best thing to do for you, they cost alot to start with but by the time you have broken 3 r+d's the ffd has payed for itself !
jim
the power and torque you have is just going to keep going through r+d's they just wont stand up to the punishment that launches and that torque throw at it !
a ffd would be the best thing to do for you, they cost alot to start with but by the time you have broken 3 r+d's the ffd has payed for itself !
jim
13-09-2009, 08:48 AM
#4
Testing the future
off topic, but whereabouts near frankfurt are you from mate? i lived in friedberg from 2001 to 2005 and loved it. went myself several times on hockenheimring 
13-09-2009, 09:25 AM
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i have the R&D box with the overdrive. i also heard about that the overdrive boxes are much more stronger than the direct fittment boxes. that was also one reason why i decide for overdrive.
what oil would be the best for the box in my case ? i have fitted an temp.sensor to the gearbox for looking for the temp. of the oil.
and sometimes on long runs (up to 5-6 hours) on the autobahn, the temp. exceeded 150 degrees. this is much to much, or ???
when i fit the cooling, i think it would be best to do it with an pump how is used in dry sump kits ?! but without sep. tank.
where i can get an ffd box from ? and how much torque it can handle ? do you have any contact ?
@ foreignRS
i live between frankfurt and fulda.
it´s only 2 hours to the NüRing and also only 2 hours to the hhr.
what oil would be the best for the box in my case ? i have fitted an temp.sensor to the gearbox for looking for the temp. of the oil.
and sometimes on long runs (up to 5-6 hours) on the autobahn, the temp. exceeded 150 degrees. this is much to much, or ???
when i fit the cooling, i think it would be best to do it with an pump how is used in dry sump kits ?! but without sep. tank.
where i can get an ffd box from ? and how much torque it can handle ? do you have any contact ?
@ foreignRS
i live between frankfurt and fulda.
it´s only 2 hours to the NüRing and also only 2 hours to the hhr.
Last edited by evo700; 13-09-2009 at 09:27 AM.
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13-09-2009, 09:34 AM
#8
i have the R&D box with the overdrive. i also heard about that the overdrive boxes are much more stronger than the direct fittment boxes. that was also one reason why i decide for overdrive.
what oil would be the best for the box in my case ? i have fitted an temp.sensor to the gearbox for looking for the temp. of the oil.
and sometimes on long runs (up to 5-6 hours) on the autobahn, the temp. exceeded 150 degrees. this is much to much, or ???
when i fit the cooling, i think it would be best to do it with an pump how is used in dry sump kits ?! but without sep. tank.
where i can get an ffd box from ? and how much torque it can handle ? do you have any contact ?
@ foreignRS
i live between frankfurt and fulda.
it´s only 2 hours to the NüRing and also only 2 hours to the hhr.
what oil would be the best for the box in my case ? i have fitted an temp.sensor to the gearbox for looking for the temp. of the oil.
and sometimes on long runs (up to 5-6 hours) on the autobahn, the temp. exceeded 150 degrees. this is much to much, or ???
when i fit the cooling, i think it would be best to do it with an pump how is used in dry sump kits ?! but without sep. tank.
where i can get an ffd box from ? and how much torque it can handle ? do you have any contact ?
@ foreignRS
i live between frankfurt and fulda.
it´s only 2 hours to the NüRing and also only 2 hours to the hhr.
the best place to get a ffd gearbox if from BARAMOTORSPORT
theyre not cheap expect around £10,000,
also, do not get a 7speed unless your buying sequential.
if you need any help with choosing ratios then send me a private message next week as i have all the ratios at work and could tell you what speeds each gear does through all the ratios
Jim
13-09-2009, 10:08 AM
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@ jimbo
ok. this would be fine, if you could give me same info´s about the ratios of the ffd boxes.
but the box must be sequential.
because in some hard driving situations/conditions it´s really no problem to hit in a wrong gear with an 6 speed H-pattern box.because gears are really,really near together at the gearknob.
and i think the 7 speed box is in some things weaker because of the place the 7th gear needs. i heard something obout the dog rings ?
is the case mag or alloy ?
what kind of centre diff they fit ?
box is prepared for cooling ?!
any info´s how long the box is ok in road or trackday use ?
ok. this would be fine, if you could give me same info´s about the ratios of the ffd boxes.
but the box must be sequential.
because in some hard driving situations/conditions it´s really no problem to hit in a wrong gear with an 6 speed H-pattern box.because gears are really,really near together at the gearknob.
and i think the 7 speed box is in some things weaker because of the place the 7th gear needs. i heard something obout the dog rings ?
is the case mag or alloy ?
what kind of centre diff they fit ?
box is prepared for cooling ?!
any info´s how long the box is ok in road or trackday use ?
13-09-2009, 10:32 AM
#11
@ jimbo
ok. this would be fine, if you could give me same info´s about the ratios of the ffd boxes.
but the box must be sequential.
because in some hard driving situations/conditions it´s really no problem to hit in a wrong gear with an 6 speed H-pattern box.because gears are really,really near together at the gearknob.
and i think the 7 speed box is in some things weaker because of the place the 7th gear needs. i heard something obout the dog rings ?
is the case mag or alloy ?
what kind of centre diff they fit ?
box is prepared for cooling ?!
any info´s how long the box is ok in road or trackday use ?
ok. this would be fine, if you could give me same info´s about the ratios of the ffd boxes.
but the box must be sequential.
because in some hard driving situations/conditions it´s really no problem to hit in a wrong gear with an 6 speed H-pattern box.because gears are really,really near together at the gearknob.
and i think the 7 speed box is in some things weaker because of the place the 7th gear needs. i heard something obout the dog rings ?
is the case mag or alloy ?
what kind of centre diff they fit ?
box is prepared for cooling ?!
any info´s how long the box is ok in road or trackday use ?
the reason why i say dont get a 7 speed h patter is because again its even easier to miss gears as your trying to squeeze enother gear in the same room across the gate.
i would say sequential ffd is one of the best boxes for a track escort cosworth
the casings iirc can be mag or ally,
mainly the bell housing is magnesium but the actual gearbox casing im not 100% sure.
the ffd gearbox is dry sumped, they have the pump build into the gear box
the dry sump tank fits up in the engine bay and a oil cooler is needed, somewhere on the front of the car obviously,
as for the centre diff, when speeking to bara, specify what you would like and he will be able to sort this out for you.
the worst thing with ffd's are, being designed for rallying, im sure the gear ratios are designed to be used for 4.44 ratio diffs.
one ratio is 150mph at 8000rpm in 6th gear. on 4.44 ratio ! on 3.9 or 3.6 (which ever you are on) this is obviously going to give a higher top speed and longer overall gearing ect so you really need to think about what the car is mainly for, what top speed your going to need ect
i will get the gear ratios next week, but as above they are for 4.44 diffs so you need to work out which one you need,
what diff ratios are you on ?
Jim
13-09-2009, 10:57 AM
#12
I did about 20 full on back to back launches at Brunters with 600hp and the R&D never had any problems. I ran that same box for a couple of years and only ever lost one tooth off one gear, changed the gear and it was all good again.. Horrific company to deal with though.
13-09-2009, 11:03 AM
#13
I did about 20 full on back to back launches at Brunters with 600hp and the R&D never had any problems. I ran that same box for a couple of years and only ever lost one tooth off one gear, changed the gear and it was all good again.. Horrific company to deal with though.
the one in that 600escort we did went through 2 gearboxes, ended up going with a bara box
13-09-2009, 11:04 AM
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i´m on 3.62. becuase i love to burn porsche´s and ferrari´s not only at the lights, i also can go on with them on the autobahn.
and also at the hockenheimring i need 300km/h for the parabolica before the 180 degree "Haarnadel" corner.
also at the Nordschleife when i passed "Bergwerk" i accelerate up to 6th gear.
i rev my engine only to 7800rpm.mostly lower.
but the first gear should be not longer than 2.98. because it´s really bad to start drive from standing, especially when the road goes up the hills.
what kind of material they use for the gears ?
and again..what oil is best for that ?
and also at the hockenheimring i need 300km/h for the parabolica before the 180 degree "Haarnadel" corner.
also at the Nordschleife when i passed "Bergwerk" i accelerate up to 6th gear.
i rev my engine only to 7800rpm.mostly lower.
but the first gear should be not longer than 2.98. because it´s really bad to start drive from standing, especially when the road goes up the hills.
what kind of material they use for the gears ?
and again..what oil is best for that ?
Last edited by evo700; 13-09-2009 at 11:05 AM.
13-09-2009, 11:10 AM
#15
i´m on 3.62. becuase i love to burn porsche´s and ferrari´s not only at the lights, i also can go on with them on the autobahn.
and also at the hockenheimring i need 300km/h for the parabolica before the 180 degree "Haarnadel" corner.
also at the Nordschleife when i passed "Bergwerk" i accelerate up to 6th gear.
i rev my engine only to 7800rpm.mostly lower.
but the first gear should be not longer than 2.98. because it´s really bad to start drive from standing, especially when the road goes up the hills.
what kind of material they use for the gears ?
and again..what oil is best for that ?
and also at the hockenheimring i need 300km/h for the parabolica before the 180 degree "Haarnadel" corner.
also at the Nordschleife when i passed "Bergwerk" i accelerate up to 6th gear.
i rev my engine only to 7800rpm.mostly lower.
but the first gear should be not longer than 2.98. because it´s really bad to start drive from standing, especially when the road goes up the hills.
what kind of material they use for the gears ?
and again..what oil is best for that ?
again oil, speek with bara he will be best to awnser all these questions
13-09-2009, 11:14 AM
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@ martin
i also have done r.a. 20 drag-starts without any probs..
i also use a raclogic tractioncontrol with launchcontrol.
so i launch with full throttle,6800rpm and 1.7 bar boost.
but i don´t use semis.
but the car´s weight is up on 1400kg without me.
but is it not to much temp. i reach in my box.it exceeds sometimes 150 degrees and more.
or do i use the wrong oil ?
is it possible the box die always on long autobahn trips. for example i was 2 times with my EsCos at the final of the ferrari challenge in italy.
and always on such trips i see the gearbox-oiltemp. is going higher and higher.
i also have done r.a. 20 drag-starts without any probs..
i also use a raclogic tractioncontrol with launchcontrol.
so i launch with full throttle,6800rpm and 1.7 bar boost.
but i don´t use semis.
but the car´s weight is up on 1400kg without me.
but is it not to much temp. i reach in my box.it exceeds sometimes 150 degrees and more.
or do i use the wrong oil ?
is it possible the box die always on long autobahn trips. for example i was 2 times with my EsCos at the final of the ferrari challenge in italy.
and always on such trips i see the gearbox-oiltemp. is going higher and higher.
Last edited by evo700; 13-09-2009 at 11:18 AM.
13-09-2009, 11:33 AM
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@ Martin Reyland......
how is it going with your OS-Giken Skyline box.
for the price of the ffd, i also can get the skyline conversion from you !
how is your experience with that ?
you use it on your 700++ EsCos, right ?
how is it going with your OS-Giken Skyline box.
for the price of the ffd, i also can get the skyline conversion from you !
how is your experience with that ?
you use it on your 700++ EsCos, right ?
13-09-2009, 11:51 AM
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thx a lot. i used google but there are lots of adresse-books-sites with diferent infos.
of topic
i know the well name harvey gibbs in the cossi scene. you have the same familyname, or ?
of topic
i know the well name harvey gibbs in the cossi scene. you have the same familyname, or ?
13-09-2009, 11:58 AM
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have you ever considered whats known as
shot peening your gears ???
only asks as it helps to strengthen them up and to stop any stress cracks etc appearing
always get my conrods shot peened and am a strong beleiver in its benefit
have heard of a lot of people shot peening there gears too for this reason
would certainly be a lot cheaper than buying a ffd box
shot peening your gears ???
only asks as it helps to strengthen them up and to stop any stress cracks etc appearing
always get my conrods shot peened and am a strong beleiver in its benefit
have heard of a lot of people shot peening there gears too for this reason
would certainly be a lot cheaper than buying a ffd box
13-09-2009, 12:22 PM
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this are the std. ratios on the ms90 in the wrc cossi´s ?
i think i have seen this ratio´s in the wrc workshop manual.
this is really only for 4.44
but 6th is 0.5 for 290km/h on 18 inch wheels for tramac stages. but they rev 8000 rpm.
hhmmmm
i think i have seen this ratio´s in the wrc workshop manual.
this is really only for 4.44
but 6th is 0.5 for 290km/h on 18 inch wheels for tramac stages. but they rev 8000 rpm.
hhmmmm
13-09-2009, 12:30 PM
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@ martin
i watched highly interested at the stories and info´s in the PF and FF magazines.
but since 2 years i heard nothing about anymore.
in the beginning you have had probs with the propshafts or with the box itself ?!
in that time you also run in your monster engine, with higher deck, topsecret turbo, and so on.... ?
have you done the skyline conversion also for others, or is your car the one and only ?
i watched highly interested at the stories and info´s in the PF and FF magazines.
but since 2 years i heard nothing about anymore.
in the beginning you have had probs with the propshafts or with the box itself ?!
in that time you also run in your monster engine, with higher deck, topsecret turbo, and so on.... ?
have you done the skyline conversion also for others, or is your car the one and only ?
Last edited by evo700; 13-09-2009 at 12:43 PM.
13-09-2009, 02:57 PM
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exactly there i´m living. it´s really mega impressive and also mega adrenalin-kicking to do some super fast rides through the hills and corners in the "Rhön" esspecially the vogelsberkreis.
but by the police it´s the most controlled area, because of the crazy motorbikers.
but if i do 20-30 minutes of racing there by night with car mostly at 90%, i have to stop. and when i climb of the car my hands and the hole body does have this fine shaking for a while.so i´m overfull with adrenaline then. that´s great....
but by the police it´s the most controlled area, because of the crazy motorbikers.
but if i do 20-30 minutes of racing there by night with car mostly at 90%, i have to stop. and when i climb of the car my hands and the hole body does have this fine shaking for a while.so i´m overfull with adrenaline then. that´s great....
13-09-2009, 09:36 PM
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I did about 20 full on back to back launches at Brunters with 600hp and the R&D never had any problems. I ran that same box for a couple of years and only ever lost one tooth off one gear, changed the gear and it was all good again.. Horrific company to deal with though.
14-09-2009, 06:11 AM
#33
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Give Bara a ring, top service from this guy
My Bara box has taken some punishment and im running massive torque, it went back last year while the engine was out and just had a new set of bearings
The only problem was the uprated input shalf didnt last 5 mins so got back old input shalf and Martin @ Reyalnd said lets get it frozen and its been fine
Done a good 30+ launches, Brunters and Pod running 888 and lots of power
My Bara box has taken some punishment and im running massive torque, it went back last year while the engine was out and just had a new set of bearings
The only problem was the uprated input shalf didnt last 5 mins so got back old input shalf and Martin @ Reyalnd said lets get it frozen and its been fine
Done a good 30+ launches, Brunters and Pod running 888 and lots of power
14-09-2009, 07:49 AM
#34
@ martin
i watched highly interested at the stories and info´s in the PF and FF magazines.
but since 2 years i heard nothing about anymore.
in the beginning you have had probs with the propshafts or with the box itself ?!
in that time you also run in your monster engine, with higher deck, topsecret turbo, and so on.... ?
have you done the skyline conversion also for others, or is your car the one and only ?
i watched highly interested at the stories and info´s in the PF and FF magazines.
but since 2 years i heard nothing about anymore.
in the beginning you have had probs with the propshafts or with the box itself ?!
in that time you also run in your monster engine, with higher deck, topsecret turbo, and so on.... ?
have you done the skyline conversion also for others, or is your car the one and only ?
Then we had problems with it jumping out of third, the supplier tried to tell me it was me and that I didn't know how to use a dog box
After further investigation we found that ALL MK1 OS Giken gearboxes had big problems with dog life, this was cured by them suppling us a MK2 gearkit. Only buy MK2 versions!!And lastly .. Originally I tried a one piece propshaft but I couldn't get rid of a vibration so a split prop was fitted and its all been good since then.
I have 4 cars running the OS Giken conversion, mine is the only one in the UK though.
My car has always ran the tall block engine, this has had no problems whatsoever and despite what some folk predicted didn't pop when full boost was used
Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 14-09-2009 at 07:52 AM.
14-09-2009, 04:02 PM
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does anybody know the weight of all the above mentioned conversions ?
i think the os giken box also not an lightweight.
is there no semihelical skyline box available what can also handle up to 800-900NM ?
because this would be much minder noisy and also it will do his job much longer than an straightcut box caused by the less wear, esspecially when it has to handle such long runs on the autobahn like i often do.
and a straight cut box produces also more heat.
and straightcut gears can not take so much powerd the hellicalgears.
but what they do is, they transfer not the power to the casing.
but ok...the most important is: it must be strong !!!
but if it would be strong AND not so noisy, it would be the perfect box for me.
i think the os giken box also not an lightweight.
is there no semihelical skyline box available what can also handle up to 800-900NM ?
because this would be much minder noisy and also it will do his job much longer than an straightcut box caused by the less wear, esspecially when it has to handle such long runs on the autobahn like i often do.
and a straight cut box produces also more heat.
and straightcut gears can not take so much powerd the hellicalgears.
but what they do is, they transfer not the power to the casing.
but ok...the most important is: it must be strong !!!
but if it would be strong AND not so noisy, it would be the perfect box for me.
14-09-2009, 04:14 PM
#36
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There sure is a Helical box with dog engagment available for a Skyline... PPG (Pfitzer Performance gearbox)
I know of a low mileage one for sale as well.
£3k.... BARGAIN!
Its VERY strong. Its quiet and has a super fast dog engagment change.
PM me for details.
I know of a low mileage one for sale as well.
£3k.... BARGAIN!
Its VERY strong. Its quiet and has a super fast dog engagment change.
PM me for details.
Last edited by Porkie; 14-09-2009 at 04:16 PM.
14-09-2009, 04:42 PM
#37
does anybody know the weight of all the above mentioned conversions ?
i think the os giken box also not an lightweight.
is there no semihelical skyline box available what can also handle up to 800-900NM ?
because this would be much minder noisy and also it will do his job much longer than an straightcut box caused by the less wear, esspecially when it has to handle such long runs on the autobahn like i often do.
and a straight cut box produces also more heat.
and straightcut gears can not take so much powerd the hellicalgears.
but what they do is, they transfer not the power to the casing.
but ok...the most important is: it must be strong !!!
but if it would be strong AND not so noisy, it would be the perfect box for me.
i think the os giken box also not an lightweight.
is there no semihelical skyline box available what can also handle up to 800-900NM ?
because this would be much minder noisy and also it will do his job much longer than an straightcut box caused by the less wear, esspecially when it has to handle such long runs on the autobahn like i often do.
and a straight cut box produces also more heat.
and straightcut gears can not take so much powerd the hellicalgears.
but what they do is, they transfer not the power to the casing.
but ok...the most important is: it must be strong !!!
but if it would be strong AND not so noisy, it would be the perfect box for me.
14-09-2009, 04:56 PM
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no mate. Helically cut gears with dog engagment. You have driven it... It's a bargain for £3k don't you think?
Oh actually it's just 1st to 4th that's dog engagement so you can change as fast as you like.... Fifth gear and reverse use use synchros for ease of use. Cooool idea I think.
Oh actually it's just 1st to 4th that's dog engagement so you can change as fast as you like.... Fifth gear and reverse use use synchros for ease of use. Cooool idea I think.
Last edited by Porkie; 14-09-2009 at 05:10 PM.
