cossie coil on plug
13-12-2004 | 09:27 PM
#43
foreigneRS,
I can do a fully sequential coil adaptor just for these babies.
I want Ł100 and your ecu sent to me to modify and test. (3-5 days turn around)
I do NOT make any adjustments to the chip in any way.
(the mods can be easily removed if needed)
PM or mail me if you are interested !
I can do a fully sequential coil adaptor just for these babies.
I want Ł100 and your ecu sent to me to modify and test. (3-5 days turn around)
I do NOT make any adjustments to the chip in any way.
(the mods can be easily removed if needed)
PM or mail me if you are interested !
13-12-2004 | 09:32 PM
#47
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From: Nth Lincolnshire
I've been harping on about how good these are for ages 
Got a set fitted to my zetec and they work fine
These will not fit the cossy as they are too short but I know a coil that may fit.
The downside is there expensive
Have a look at the BAE720 - Ł89.90 + vat each
http://www.mmcompsys.com/engine-ignitioncoils.asp
I have the latest catalogue at home which lists a couple of other models too.
BAE403 RC - Ł105 + vat each
Give me the measurement from the top of the plug to the top of the rocker cover, and diameter of the hole and I will check measurements and let you know the correct one to get.
Got a set fitted to my zetec and they work fine
These will not fit the cossy as they are too short but I know a coil that may fit.
The downside is there expensive
Have a look at the BAE720 - Ł89.90 + vat each
http://www.mmcompsys.com/engine-ignitioncoils.asp
I have the latest catalogue at home which lists a couple of other models too.
BAE403 RC - Ł105 + vat each
Give me the measurement from the top of the plug to the top of the rocker cover, and diameter of the hole and I will check measurements and let you know the correct one to get.
14-12-2004 | 06:58 AM
#49
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SECS, thanks for the reply Simon. pm sent.
the original, cheers bro. i wasn't taking the piss. you're a genius.
i didn't know if the coilpack is triggered in the same way as the coil on plug, so i didn't know if you can use the ignition amps (cos i don't understand what they do and how they would trigger the coil pack that needs a 5V trigger). i'm a bit thick with electronics.
so it seems i want to use a 4 output ignition amp with 2 inputs (as in wasted spark configuration), and this will work with L8 (with a converter), and directly with a S8?
the original, cheers bro. i wasn't taking the piss. you're a genius.
i didn't know if the coilpack is triggered in the same way as the coil on plug, so i didn't know if you can use the ignition amps (cos i don't understand what they do and how they would trigger the coil pack that needs a 5V trigger). i'm a bit thick with electronics.
so it seems i want to use a 4 output ignition amp with 2 inputs (as in wasted spark configuration), and this will work with L8 (with a converter), and directly with a S8?
14-12-2004 | 07:50 AM
#50
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AustenW, i checked out some of the components on there.
they have a dual ouput coil for wasted spark systems. the spark duration for that is 2.1ms, while the longest spark time for one of the plug top coils is 1.6 ms.
is that likely to affect anything? i suppose that a longer spark time is a good thing, but is it necessary on a turbo engine with a relatively high dynamic compression ratio?
they have a dual ouput coil for wasted spark systems. the spark duration for that is 2.1ms, while the longest spark time for one of the plug top coils is 1.6 ms.
is that likely to affect anything? i suppose that a longer spark time is a good thing, but is it necessary on a turbo engine with a relatively high dynamic compression ratio?
14-12-2004 | 08:13 AM
#51
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From: NWFP
i didn't know if the coilpack is triggered in the same way as the coil on plug, so i didn't know if you can use the ignition amps (cos i don't understand what they do and how they would trigger the coil pack that needs a 5V trigger). i'm a bit thick with electronics.
so it seems i want to use a 4 output ignition amp with 2 inputs (as in wasted spark configuration), and this will work with L8 (with a converter), and directly with a S8?
so it seems i want to use a 4 output ignition amp with 2 inputs (as in wasted spark configuration), and this will work with L8 (with a converter), and directly with a S8?
you're suggesting they have an amp built in to the top, and just require a trigger-
in that case you shouldn't need a seperate amp.?
although if they work that way (with high impedance inputs), you could trigger 2 at once wasted spark style? i.e. 2 output ecu
secs 4 trigger modded ecu sounds good though
what i'd like to see is a wiring diagram for the honda setup, as i've never come across a coil on plug that needs a 5v trigger.
i.e. Both the ones on AustenW's link have just the coil on top of the plug and would still need an amp. they're 3-pin like yours.... how did you deduce they need a 5V trigger Nick?
and one for luck....
and i have heard about the problems that VAG have been having with theirs, but i think that they're from a different manufacturer. VAG stuff is way worse quality than anything jap anyway, and honda in particular tend to fit what is technically the best rather than what is the cheapest.
14-12-2004 | 08:39 AM
#52
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i thought something wasn't quite right with needing amps. 
i disconnected one of them with the engine running and put an oscilloscope on the input and got this: oscilloscope settings, 1V / div., 5ms / div.
how did you deduce they need a 5V trigger Nick?
14-12-2004 | 08:41 AM
#53
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thinking about it, should i have left it connected and just connected the osci. in paralel? would that make any difference, or would the voltage just drop off immediately if it was connected to the load?
i tell you, i'm thick with electronics.
i tell you, i'm thick with electronics.
14-12-2004 | 11:05 AM
#54
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i need to know if this will work. i can get 4 of these coil on plug packs brand new for 226 euro (about 160 quid). that compares favourably with a new set of leads, new dizzy cap and new rotor arm and should give a stronger spark and be more reliable and free from service.
14-12-2004 | 12:06 PM
#55
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From: Nth Lincolnshire
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
AustenW, i checked out some of the components on there.
they have a dual ouput coil for wasted spark systems. the spark duration for that is 2.1ms, while the longest spark time for one of the plug top coils is 1.6 ms.
is that likely to affect anything? i suppose that a longer spark time is a good thing, but is it necessary on a turbo engine with a relatively high dynamic compression ratio?
they have a dual ouput coil for wasted spark systems. the spark duration for that is 2.1ms, while the longest spark time for one of the plug top coils is 1.6 ms.
is that likely to affect anything? i suppose that a longer spark time is a good thing, but is it necessary on a turbo engine with a relatively high dynamic compression ratio?
The coils that are used on mine have been used upto 600bhp without any problems on a turbo engine.
The Magnetti Marrelli Website list a few different coils, These should be fine as they are designed for race engines.
The advantage of coil on plug is that they have a longer recharge time if used sequentially as there are four of them. This in theory should give a stronger spark.
14-12-2004 | 12:20 PM
#56
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From: Nth Lincolnshire
Originally Posted by the original
i didn't know if the coilpack is triggered in the same way as the coil on plug, so i didn't know if you can use the ignition amps (cos i don't understand what they do and how they would trigger the coil pack that needs a 5V trigger). i'm a bit thick with electronics.
so it seems i want to use a 4 output ignition amp with 2 inputs (as in wasted spark configuration), and this will work with L8 (with a converter), and directly with a S8?
so it seems i want to use a 4 output ignition amp with 2 inputs (as in wasted spark configuration), and this will work with L8 (with a converter), and directly with a S8?
you're suggesting they have an amp built in to the top, and just require a trigger-
in that case you shouldn't need a seperate amp.?
although if they work that way (with high impedance inputs), you could trigger 2 at once wasted spark style? i.e. 2 output ecu
secs 4 trigger modded ecu sounds good though
what i'd like to see is a wiring diagram for the honda setup, as i've never come across a coil on plug that needs a 5v trigger.
i.e. Both the ones on AustenW's link have just the coil on top of the plug and would still need an amp. they're 3-pin like yours.... how did you deduce they need a 5V trigger Nick?
and one for luck....
and i have heard about the problems that VAG have been having with theirs, but i think that they're from a different manufacturer. VAG stuff is way worse quality than anything jap anyway, and honda in particular tend to fit what is technically the best rather than what is the cheapest.
The majority of these coil on plugs are 0.5 Ohm resistance
Mine are 2 pin, 12v feed and triger, (0.5ohm)
A conventional wasted spark coil uses two triggers from the ECU and a 12v feed. These are normally 0.5 Ohm on each side too.
If 2 coil on plug are run in series or paralel with two triggers from the ecu it would create a draw of either 0.25 or 1 ohm which would effect the running of the ECU.
Originally I thought about using 0.5 ohm resistors to reduce the resistance back from 1ohm to 0.5 for two coils but decided this would not work correctly.
I'd be interested to know if this could be done. Found it difficult to source a correct spec resistor though when I looked a while ago.
In the end I bought a new MBE 970 ECU that can run 4 seperate coils as it has 4 seperate ignition amplifyers.
They work great too
14-12-2004 | 06:03 PM
#58
from what i can see your making this job very hard, you wont see any further advantages than just using a dual coil unit , if there was an advantage , then i would have it on mine !!!!
14-12-2004 | 06:29 PM
#59
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From: Nth Lincolnshire
Taken from another post I started a while ago.
Originally Posted by AustenW
While I'm on a role I thought I would share this with you all.
This is a coil on plug kit for the Zetec / Duratec engine that I have sourced for my car but can get hold of the parts if anyone is interested.
Just to give a bit of technical speel.
Spark plugs wires are going away for the same reason that distributors went away.
Vehicle manufacturers want to improve ignition performance and reliability.
Plug wires are an assembly line nuisance, and are often the weak link in todays distributor less ignition systems. The plug wires must carry anywhere from 5,000 up to 40,000 or more volts to fire the plugs.
This requires heavy insulation plus the ability to suppress electromagnetic interference (EMI). The wires must also be coated with a tough outer jacket to withstand high temperatures in the engine compartment and chemical attack.
As reliable as todays plug wires are, there is always the potential for trouble. Even the toughest insulation can burn if a wire rubs up against a hot exhaust manifold. The connection inside the spark plug boot between the wire and plug terminal can also be damaged if someone jerks on the wire to remove the boot when changing sparkplugs.
Plug wires can also radiate magnetic fields that may affect nearby sensor wires or other electronic circuits.
Attaching the ignition coils directly to the spark plugs eliminates the need for separate high voltage wires along with their potential for trouble.
Eliminating the individual plug wires also eliminates the need for wire looms and heat shields. Thats why coil-on-plug ignition systems are being used by a growing number of race teams.
Benefits include:
Directly mounted to spark plug and includes a robust electrical connection to the plug.
Greater spark energy may allow increase in plug gap for better burn.
Increased recharge time due to 4 coils.
Laminations encapsulated in epoxy for environmental protection and increased safety.
Reduced weight and under bonnet complexity.
Improved combustion quality and reduced electrical draw.
losing one will affect engine performance, but you can still drive
Coil on plug are used on the Focus World Rally Car. Why is this??
This is a coil on plug kit for the Zetec / Duratec engine that I have sourced for my car but can get hold of the parts if anyone is interested.
Just to give a bit of technical speel.
Spark plugs wires are going away for the same reason that distributors went away.
Vehicle manufacturers want to improve ignition performance and reliability.
Plug wires are an assembly line nuisance, and are often the weak link in todays distributor less ignition systems. The plug wires must carry anywhere from 5,000 up to 40,000 or more volts to fire the plugs.
This requires heavy insulation plus the ability to suppress electromagnetic interference (EMI). The wires must also be coated with a tough outer jacket to withstand high temperatures in the engine compartment and chemical attack.
As reliable as todays plug wires are, there is always the potential for trouble. Even the toughest insulation can burn if a wire rubs up against a hot exhaust manifold. The connection inside the spark plug boot between the wire and plug terminal can also be damaged if someone jerks on the wire to remove the boot when changing sparkplugs.
Plug wires can also radiate magnetic fields that may affect nearby sensor wires or other electronic circuits.
Attaching the ignition coils directly to the spark plugs eliminates the need for separate high voltage wires along with their potential for trouble.
Eliminating the individual plug wires also eliminates the need for wire looms and heat shields. Thats why coil-on-plug ignition systems are being used by a growing number of race teams.
Benefits include:
Directly mounted to spark plug and includes a robust electrical connection to the plug.
Greater spark energy may allow increase in plug gap for better burn.
Increased recharge time due to 4 coils.
Laminations encapsulated in epoxy for environmental protection and increased safety.
Reduced weight and under bonnet complexity.
Improved combustion quality and reduced electrical draw.
losing one will affect engine performance, but you can still drive
Coil on plug are used on the Focus World Rally Car. Why is this??
14-12-2004 | 07:39 PM
#60
Also,
Coil per plug running sequential ignition will INCREASE plug life over coilpack.
his is because each plug is ONLY fired when needed.
On a coilpack/wasted spark, 2 plugs are fired at the same time (in pairs).
Coil per plug running sequential ignition will INCREASE plug life over coilpack.
his is because each plug is ONLY fired when needed.
On a coilpack/wasted spark, 2 plugs are fired at the same time (in pairs).
14-12-2004 | 07:53 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by markk
from what i can see your making this job very hard, you wont see any further advantages than just using a dual coil unit , if there was an advantage , then i would have it on mine !!!!
and to be honest, i don't care. i just want to do things a little differently.
14-12-2004 | 07:54 PM
#64
DEYTUKURJERBS
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From: North Korea
I dont know much/amything about electrics, some someone enlighten me as this stuff always confuses me.
Do ALL coils work the same?
Ie a coil on plug work just like a coil before a dizzy, just smaller?
2 wires to it (pos n neg?) and 1 outlet to plug/dizzy
Do ALL coils work the same?
Ie a coil on plug work just like a coil before a dizzy, just smaller?
2 wires to it (pos n neg?) and 1 outlet to plug/dizzy
14-12-2004 | 07:58 PM
#65
Itsmeagain, It depends if the coil on plug has a built in amplifier or not !!
At the end of the day, all methods do the same job - provide a spark.
Its just how efficient or strong you want it .
Instead of mechanicaly selecting the plug its done electronically !
At the end of the day, all methods do the same job - provide a spark.
Its just how efficient or strong you want it .
Instead of mechanicaly selecting the plug its done electronically !
14-12-2004 | 08:08 PM
#67
DEYTUKURJERBS
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From: North Korea
Ah i see. Well skylines have a single seperate ign amp like a cossie normally would, so im presuming they work about the same, just the ign amp supplies 6 coils instead of one (that reminds me, i broke my ign amp the other day ).
Ok, different question, whats CDI? Seen CDI untis on autronic managment, and seen "not for use with CDI ignition" on some ign electronics etc, but no idea what it is, Capacitive Discharge Ignition? Wassat mean in simple terms?
Ive never had a mind for electronics, i leave other people to that, but its nice to learn stuff
).Ok, different question, whats CDI? Seen CDI untis on autronic managment, and seen "not for use with CDI ignition" on some ign electronics etc, but no idea what it is, Capacitive Discharge Ignition? Wassat mean in simple terms?
Ive never had a mind for electronics, i leave other people to that, but its nice to learn stuff
14-12-2004 | 08:14 PM
#69
Originally Posted by SECS
Originally Posted by Rs Gus
did u have a look simon?????????????
14-12-2004 | 08:35 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by SECS
It depends if the coil on plug has a built in amplifier or not !!
if so, how do i drive them? can i use the same external box as for wasted spark on my L8 but instead of supplying a twin amp i can supply a pair of coil on plug units?
can the S8 drive these coil on plug units directly?
14-12-2004 | 08:59 PM
#72
Originally Posted by Rs Gus
Originally Posted by SECS
Originally Posted by Rs Gus
did u have a look simon?????????????
15-12-2004 | 06:36 AM
#73
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Originally Posted by SECS
The latest Honda coils have amps built in. (5 volt drive)
SECS S8 can drive these directly.
SECS S8 can drive these directly.
just one more question before i order me up an S8 then
will the S8 drive all 4 coils independantly, or in pairs as wasted spark mode?
15-12-2004 | 07:16 PM
#74
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bttt for SECS.
do you know for sure that the denso/honda units have built in amps and just need a 5v drive and 12v supply, or are you going on what i've posted (which i wouldn't trust cos i'm a complete goon when it comes to electronics)?
do you know for sure that the denso/honda units have built in amps and just need a 5v drive and 12v supply, or are you going on what i've posted (which i wouldn't trust cos i'm a complete goon when it comes to electronics)?
15-12-2004 | 07:22 PM
#75
foreigneRS, I have actually worked with Honda here in there engine plant here in england and have seen these coils in use.
I built a test set for the engine to run them on the engine production line.
Not all engines have these coils with built in amplifiers.
But the latest engines do.
I will try and get some definite information from my inside contact.
May be able to get exact part numbers and the BOSCH equivalent.
I built a test set for the engine to run them on the engine production line.
Not all engines have these coils with built in amplifiers.
But the latest engines do.
I will try and get some definite information from my inside contact.
May be able to get exact part numbers and the BOSCH equivalent.
15-12-2004 | 07:28 PM
#76
DEYTUKURJERBS
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From: North Korea
Almost totally irrelivent but incase anyone was thinking, GTR ones are no use on cossies unfortunatley as the plug sits WAY too far down on a YB for it to fit without cutting the centre out the cam cover.
On RB engines they sit in line with the cams (its a 3part cam cover, inlet cam, coilpacks, exhaust cam) so the bit to push onto the plug is too short for a YB unless you placing them under the cam cover!
Shame as you can get hold of s/h sets very very cheap.
On RB engines they sit in line with the cams (its a 3part cam cover, inlet cam, coilpacks, exhaust cam) so the bit to push onto the plug is too short for a YB unless you placing them under the cam cover!
Shame as you can get hold of s/h sets very very cheap.
15-12-2004 | 07:46 PM
#77
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SECS, nice one
i already have the part number, but on my work pc. i'll post it up in the morning.
the bosch equivalent would also be useful, although i doubt that they would be as cheap to me as i get a staff discount with honda.
so will the S8 drive these directly? and if so, does it have to be in pairs, or individually?
i already have the part number, but on my work pc. i'll post it up in the morning.
the bosch equivalent would also be useful, although i doubt that they would be as cheap to me as i get a staff discount with honda.
so will the S8 drive these directly? and if so, does it have to be in pairs, or individually?
15-12-2004 | 08:30 PM
#80
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SECS, that is the answer i wanted. wasted spark is good to start off with.
right, that's decided it for me. i'm gonna order up an S8 after christmas.
my L8 is needed on my project car early next year, so that solves that issue.
wasted spark is good to start off with.right, that's decided it for me. i'm gonna order up an S8 after christmas.
my L8 is needed on my project car early next year, so that solves that issue.