Detonation Detection
02-04-2009, 09:52 AM
#43
lol 
Thanks for politely correcting my error in the other thread
I thought the RPM in that eqaution was engine RPM not wheel RPM, hadnt really taken the time to think about it before i posted
But back to this thread, where would be a good place on the old CVH to fit a bosch knock sensor, and is this one ok to use?
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/BOSCH_K..._KNOCK_KIT.asp
Thanks for politely correcting my error in the other thread
I thought the RPM in that eqaution was engine RPM not wheel RPM, hadnt really taken the time to think about it before i posted
But back to this thread, where would be a good place on the old CVH to fit a bosch knock sensor, and is this one ok to use?
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/BOSCH_K..._KNOCK_KIT.asp
Last edited by Karlos G; 02-04-2009 at 09:53 AM.
02-04-2009, 09:54 AM
#44
15K+ Super Poster!!
Thread Starter
The knocklite looks interesting and good value, I'm leaning towards the Phorumla at the moment though.
From a mapping point of view, det cans are inadequate in that they can't be used to detect inaudiable det.
If the Phorumla has a spectrum analyser on screen, it should be possible to see any sudden changes/spikes. Sure, the overall amplitude and dominate frequency will change, but that should be reasonably progressive.
Rick.
From a mapping point of view, det cans are inadequate in that they can't be used to detect inaudiable det.
If the Phorumla has a spectrum analyser on screen, it should be possible to see any sudden changes/spikes. Sure, the overall amplitude and dominate frequency will change, but that should be reasonably progressive.
Rick.
02-04-2009, 10:00 AM
#45
Found it for Ł83 on ebay but need to buy the bosch sensor seperately for another Ł63, I think as a warning device (not for tuning purposes) on my RS it would be very useful as there are so many components that can fail causing lean running, or incorrect ignition timing! Could well save my engine if something does fail!
02-04-2009, 10:00 AM
#46
Genuinely no offence was intended, if I thought you really were retarded I wouldnt say so, as it was clearly just a schoolboy error on your part though rather than a real lack of understanding, I figured that a joke about it would be a good way of making you remember next time, it certainly always works on me when people teach me that way, it makes it stick more if it hurts your pride just a little bit to read it IME
But back to this thread, where would be a good place on the old CVH to fit a bosch knock sensor, and is this one ok to use?
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/BOSCH_K..._KNOCK_KIT.asp
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/BOSCH_K..._KNOCK_KIT.asp
With regards to where to mount them, Im not mega familiar with what bolt holes you have on the CVH block, you got a picture of one I can stick an arrow on?
Basically though, something smack in the middle of the block seems to work well on most engines IME.
02-04-2009, 10:03 AM
#47
The knocklite looks interesting and good value, I'm leaning towards the Phorumla at the moment though.
From a mapping point of view, det cans are inadequate in that they can't be used to detect inaudiable det.
If the Phorumla has a spectrum analyser on screen, it should be possible to see any sudden changes/spikes. Sure, the overall amplitude and dominate frequency will change, but that should be reasonably progressive.
Rick.
From a mapping point of view, det cans are inadequate in that they can't be used to detect inaudiable det.
If the Phorumla has a spectrum analyser on screen, it should be possible to see any sudden changes/spikes. Sure, the overall amplitude and dominate frequency will change, but that should be reasonably progressive.
Rick.
I think the phormula looks great for mapping, im just not convinced of it's usefullness when in the middle of doing a trackday etc, as you cant really sit there watching graphs on the screen as you hammer round a bend etc.
If you use it with a decent ECU though like an SM4, you can have the best of all worlds as you can datalog the knock ouput 0-5v signal which is great for mapping and you can build a map of acceptable values which if you step outside you can just put a nice big fuck off bright LED on to alert the driver.
02-04-2009, 10:19 AM
#49
Lol, no worries, apologies if it came across wrongly, but the main thing is that you learnt from it, the thing that apparently Stu reckons you couldnt possibly have done
Genuinely no offence was intended, if I thought you really were retarded I wouldnt say so, as it was clearly just a schoolboy error on your part though rather than a real lack of understanding, I figured that a joke about it would be a good way of making you remember next time, it certainly always works on me when people teach me that way, it makes it stick more if it hurts your pride just a little bit to read it IME
Yes thats the sensor you want, but rather than pay over 60 quid for it, drop SBD16V a PM and he's probably got one knocking around that he'll send you for about a tenner plus postage or something, as he can get them cheap off his old man who runs a vauxhall breakers
With regards to where to mount them, Im not mega familiar with what bolt holes you have on the CVH block, you got a picture of one I can stick an arrow on?
Basically though, something smack in the middle of the block seems to work well on most engines IME.
Genuinely no offence was intended, if I thought you really were retarded I wouldnt say so, as it was clearly just a schoolboy error on your part though rather than a real lack of understanding, I figured that a joke about it would be a good way of making you remember next time, it certainly always works on me when people teach me that way, it makes it stick more if it hurts your pride just a little bit to read it IME
Yes thats the sensor you want, but rather than pay over 60 quid for it, drop SBD16V a PM and he's probably got one knocking around that he'll send you for about a tenner plus postage or something, as he can get them cheap off his old man who runs a vauxhall breakers
With regards to where to mount them, Im not mega familiar with what bolt holes you have on the CVH block, you got a picture of one I can stick an arrow on?
Basically though, something smack in the middle of the block seems to work well on most engines IME.
Is this photo any good or perhaps without the inlet manifold in the way?
You can see where Ford have fitted the standard knock sensor on the end of the inlet manifold.
I just landed a delivery mileage sensor for Ł8 on ebay! Here it is from a Vauxhal and with 6 months warranty!
Last edited by Karlos G; 02-04-2009 at 10:44 AM.
02-04-2009, 10:20 AM
#50
Ps
If you get the vectra ones, they are on a flylead with spade connects rather than having the built in 2 pin connector, which means your dont need to mess around with an AMP connector.
They are still exactly the same, ive tested them back to back on my knock box.
If you get the vectra ones, they are on a flylead with spade connects rather than having the built in 2 pin connector, which means your dont need to mess around with an AMP connector.
They are still exactly the same, ive tested them back to back on my knock box.
02-04-2009, 10:22 AM
#51
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Karlos,
FYI the reason Ford mounted the knock sensor there on the CVH turbo is that the inlet manifold is flexible enough to resonate/amplify any det events on the engine.
Not ideal but fairly effective !
FYI the reason Ford mounted the knock sensor there on the CVH turbo is that the inlet manifold is flexible enough to resonate/amplify any det events on the engine.
Not ideal but fairly effective !
02-04-2009, 10:23 AM
#52
Ah, my PS was too late, you have already bought one, lol
If you need a connector for it, let me know and I'll post you one chopped off a vauxhall loom, I have a couple of spares.
Inlet manifold isnt a bad place for it, I know a couple of tuners who go from there.
Id be looking for an existing bolt hole somewhere near that brass fitting simply cause that would relate to where they go on the vauxhall engines im used to listening to and it works well there on those.
If you need a connector for it, let me know and I'll post you one chopped off a vauxhall loom, I have a couple of spares.
Inlet manifold isnt a bad place for it, I know a couple of tuners who go from there.
Id be looking for an existing bolt hole somewhere near that brass fitting simply cause that would relate to where they go on the vauxhall engines im used to listening to and it works well there on those.
02-04-2009, 10:25 AM
#53
Just goes to show, every day is a school day, I never would have guessed that.
Think I'll stick to using block mounted sensors though as im more familiar with the sound from there!
02-04-2009, 10:29 AM
#54
Ah, my PS was too late, you have already bought one, lol
If you need a connector for it, let me know and I'll post you one chopped off a vauxhall loom, I have a couple of spares.
Inlet manifold isnt a bad place for it, I know a couple of tuners who go from there.
Id be looking for an existing bolt hole somewhere near that brass fitting simply cause that would relate to where they go on the vauxhall engines im used to listening to and it works well there on those.
If you need a connector for it, let me know and I'll post you one chopped off a vauxhall loom, I have a couple of spares.
Inlet manifold isnt a bad place for it, I know a couple of tuners who go from there.
Id be looking for an existing bolt hole somewhere near that brass fitting simply cause that would relate to where they go on the vauxhall engines im used to listening to and it works well there on those.
Brass fitting near the oil filter?
Here is a clearer pic of the back of the block..
02-04-2009, 10:56 AM
#60
Read this from knocklite site, "The actual mounting of the knock sensor and the torque setting of the mounting bolt is important as well to provide the best contact for the knock sensor"
But i guess so long as it is not overtightened or loose should be ok!
I'll 'map' my normal engine background noise when i get back from my next setup which will hopefully be in the next 2-3 weeks, that way I know it's a good clean reference of what the engine should sound like!
Cheers for all your help!
Last edited by Karlos G; 02-04-2009 at 10:57 AM.
02-04-2009, 11:06 AM
#64
Video of it here http://www.phormula.co.uk/Player.asp...ock%20Analyser
More Video http://www.phormula.co.uk/Player.asp...Analyser%20Pro
Looks like you really need to calibrate it with a set of Det headphones or some other sensor for it to be of any acurate use, spose i could have it done whilst my car is being setup on the RR!
Does look nicer than the Knocklite
Last edited by Karlos G; 02-04-2009 at 11:16 AM.
02-04-2009, 12:20 PM
#68
Obviously with the KS-3 low RPM knock detection is almost non existent as you have to set a threshold which will always be when your at the red line and your enigne is at it's noisiest.
So does anyone know if you likely to get low RPM knock on a turbo charged engine like my RS for example, if it were to lean out or the timing was too advanced, etc..?
So does anyone know if you likely to get low RPM knock on a turbo charged engine like my RS for example, if it were to lean out or the timing was too advanced, etc..?
02-04-2009, 12:21 PM
#69
Obviously with the KS-3 low RPM knock detection is almost non existent as you have to set a threshold which will always be when your at the red line and your enigne is at it's noisiest.
So does anyone know if you likely to get low RPM knock on a turbo charged engine like my RS for example, if it were to lean out or the timing was too advanced, etc..?
So does anyone know if you likely to get low RPM knock on a turbo charged engine like my RS for example, if it were to lean out or the timing was too advanced, etc..?
I should be ok with my GT35R though, lol
02-04-2009, 12:27 PM
#70
hmmm...... maybe I should stick with the Knocklite then.
My little T3 is on full chat by about 2700rpm, and the CVH is very noisey compared to other engines at high RPM so the threshold would have to be set very high on a KS-3
My little T3 is on full chat by about 2700rpm, and the CVH is very noisey compared to other engines at high RPM so the threshold would have to be set very high on a KS-3
Last edited by Karlos G; 02-04-2009 at 12:29 PM.
02-04-2009, 12:48 PM
#72
Something that has a threshold based on normal engine noise for every 500rpm would be ideal. But every 1000rpm will do which is why i'm considering the Knocklite.
Take a peek at this graph...
But still more info would be great Alex!
02-04-2009, 04:00 PM
#73
10K+ Poster!!
Got a reply re: bosch sensors....
Hi Alex,
We don’t sell the units without sensors. This is primarily because we have had issues with old/standard sensors not giving accurate readings.
Kind regards,
Anthony
Anthony Rickson
Hi Alex,
We don’t sell the units without sensors. This is primarily because we have had issues with old/standard sensors not giving accurate readings.
Kind regards,
Anthony
Anthony Rickson
02-04-2009, 09:55 PM
#74
Rubber Rhino Crew
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 2,157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could a boss be welded on to the engine block to give best location? Or would that possibly create a weak point on the block? I think If I used a proper cast Iron compatible Stick welding rod it would work. Then I could have the sensor wherever best suits on a YB.
Cheers
Dan
P.S. good discussion
Cheers
Dan
P.S. good discussion
02-04-2009, 10:47 PM
#75
10K+ Poster!!
For these system position isnt vital.
For an ECU monitoring the sensor then you want one between cyliders based on the firing order and more often than not two - so you can be sure which cylider det'd.
That way you only retard the timing for the cylider that is effected - maintaining performance.
Alex
For an ECU monitoring the sensor then you want one between cyliders based on the firing order and more often than not two - so you can be sure which cylider det'd.
That way you only retard the timing for the cylider that is effected - maintaining performance.
Alex
03-04-2009, 12:09 AM
#76
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: in the garage fixing yet another oil leak
Posts: 925
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
really interesting thread, but going back to the original post - is it possible (on a dyno / RR) to advance timing till the torque starts to drop as this will occur before det starts?
03-04-2009, 09:22 AM
#77
10K+ Poster!!
Hi PGT,
Yes in theory you can do just that - but you have to be aware you are likly to get heat soak and so what causes DET on a dyno might not on the road and vice-vera.
You can also monitor EGTs. As soon as det begins the EGT jumps up.
Yes in theory you can do just that - but you have to be aware you are likly to get heat soak and so what causes DET on a dyno might not on the road and vice-vera.
You can also monitor EGTs. As soon as det begins the EGT jumps up.
03-04-2009, 06:10 PM
#79
10K+ Poster!!
17-04-2009, 01:51 PM
#80
Virgin
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Athens - Greece
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the phormula looks great for mapping, im just not convinced of it's usefullness when in the middle of doing a trackday etc, as you cant really sit there watching graphs on the screen as you hammer round a bend etc.
If you use it with a decent ECU though like an SM4, you can have the best of all worlds as you can datalog the knock ouput 0-5v signal which is great for mapping and you can build a map of acceptable values which if you step outside you can just put a nice big fuck off bright LED on to alert the driver.
If you use it with a decent ECU though like an SM4, you can have the best of all worlds as you can datalog the knock ouput 0-5v signal which is great for mapping and you can build a map of acceptable values which if you step outside you can just put a nice big fuck off bright LED on to alert the driver.
I need to find the tech data from the oem Sierra's Marelli SEN 14B knock sensor and mostly I concern for the output voltage signal vs Khz table or for the voltage output signal vs 12 to 16 Khz.
Can someone help me please?
Nick.
If it's difficult to post this table here as an attachment, my e-mail is georgia.ligda@ontelecoms.gr