Azrael

Hello,

It's me again with my Escos smoking. I had a turbo rebuild third time by Garett oficiall dealership. Full rapair kit changed, it was perfectly cleaned and they said it was just worn out and not rebuild properly. I put it into a car and after two days of driving car started to smoke badly! It only smokes when idling. If I touch the throttle and have the revs over 1k there is no smoke, if I let it idle there is blue-grey clpoud of smoke behind me after some 30 seconds. Engine was checked and assembled 22 000km ago. There is no smoke from breather or ony other hole in the engine. It runs perfectly over idle. Pulls like it schould but there is smoke. There is nothing like that with old turbo. I think it started having problems with idling and sometimes it stalls if I rev it and lift off when stationary. What can that be and why? Breather problem? Oil return? (the why only at idle) what more can I check???
Please help, now it's not the mony, oit's that I have no idea what's going on!.

Azrael

The Sludge

mmmmmmmmmm, piston rings maybe?

Azrael

And it stops to smoke with old turbo? No way, and it would smoke while driving. Valve seals does not seam sensible too because they where chaged 22000km agfo when engine was disassembled

The Sludge

seaals on turbo fiitted correctly?

Oil pump?

Azrael

I don't think they could fuck this up - this the third rebuild, now I tryied different company that has great opinion and gives warranty

What can be wrong with that that makes car smoke at idle ??

What is strange to me it stops smoking if kept even at 1k rpm!!!

The Sludge

strange matey. Have no other ideas for ya matey. PM stu, and see wot he says. Sorry i aint been much help

hexxon

The oil-feed line is a new one? Undersized return?

Azrael

Oil feed is the one that was on the car. Probably stock Ford item.

Return is also original. About 3 times the diameter of feed line.

Azrael

Thanks for looking at it. I will try PM'ing Stu :-(

hexxon

Ok, if you havent changed the feed, do that! The bearings could be getting too little oil and get overheated and therefore boil it through the seals... Its not a ball bearing one is it?

Ian M

how big is the hole in the turbo oil feed adaptor.? i have had this before with a new turbo and it was due to the hole being to big i changed the adaptor and the problem went away.

Azrael

This is stock small turbo Escos turbo. It get's oil quite fine from what I can check. There wasn't any signs of overheated shaft when turbo was rebuild - like colour change or something like that. It ONLY smokes when stationary!!! I can order a feed from somewhere of course but I don't think that can help - do you?

Azrael

It's about 0,5mm I think. The turbo was run with the same adaptor before rebuild and everything was fine.

Why would that be a probelm only at idle?

Azrael

Bythe way - for first ~100km everything was just fine. This morning the car was ruing at idle for over half an hour and everything was OK, and now it clouds the sky with this smoke :-(

hexxon

[quote="Azrael"]No, wont be it now that you specified the turbo as well. Did they swap the whole bearing housing? Sounds like theres something fishy with your breather system though if its smoking when stationary, but its strange for that to change when doing a turbo rebuild... Look for obstructions in the breather piping anyhow... Also check the valve connected underneath the intake.

Ian M

it did on mine if the hole is to big oil cant return to the sump quick enough so it gets pushed past the turbo oil seal hence smoke but if its the standard adaptor the turbo came with from garrett it wont be the problem.

Azrael

But then even more oil would get through the seal when on higher revs as the oil pressure is higher. Am I right?

hexxon

Ok. Check the shaft in the turbo for any strange clearances first of all. Then remove the return hose and make sure you dont have any strange bends on it. It should be straight all the way down to the sump. After that check all of the breather system for any obstructions. Return with answers...

Ian M

well you would think so but i never saw any smoke whilst driving. only at idle.

Azrael

They swaped whole rebuild kit from garett like the ones sold by MSD.
Is it possible that with breather problem worn old turbo wouldn't smoke and new rebuild one would?
Will dissasemble the breather piping but there is slight pulse you can feel on the end of breather pipe when engine is runing so it does not seem that it is obstructed. Still I will check that. I don't have the airbox and the valve. Breathe is just going loose into atmosphere. I know I schould buy proper breather system but I would like to know if there at least is a chance it can help.

Azrael

Fist too already done on my own. Is there any possibility of the part of oil return in the sump being blocked?

I will check the breather tommorow.

Azrael

It is strange, but I have stock one :-( So it won't be that most probably...

hexxon

The only possibility for "obstruction" in the return would be really high crankcase pressure or a nasty bend on it.

Azrael

Does that mean that if I take the oil level indicator and e.g. open the oil cap to reallese pressure it schould stop smoking?

hexxon

Wouldnt recommend doing that though... But might be worth a try. Prepare for a cleanup afterwards

Azrael

There is nobig problem when removing oil dipstick, cap I can leave there so it covers most of the hole. But the question is if that would help if breather system is obstructed. I will give it a try.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Hi,
The seal on a turbocharger is a "Differential pressure seal"

The way it works is by maintaining a seal in the middle of two opposing pressures. At idle, the exhaust back pressure is low and this is the time the oil pressure can overcome the seal. Once on teh move, the exhaust pressure is higher and resists flow from teh core through the seal. This is why high oil pressure and the feed being too large causes problems and its always worst on teh overun and at idle.

The oil return pipe from the turbo should be renewed in case it has collapsed internally as again, this raises the core pressure to higher than exhaust pressure and the seal cannot work. (Ive seen this... externally looks great, internally collapsed)

Breather must also be checked for blockage as the oil can be induced from here also.

It still sounds to me like a poor turbo to be honest and theres only one way to be sure, either change it, or remove the turbos oil feed and stop the shaft rotating for long enough to ascertain teh problem has gone away.

Hope this helps.

Azrael

Top explanation so far !!!

But I think this one is out as I have completly stock oil feed. Am I right?



This one will be checked. Looks great. Was removed for the engine but we didn't check how it flows, will wash it or something.


Induced? I don't have the breather connected to the intake. It's rather high cranckcase pressure bloking oil return - this one I check and write back.



With old, worn turbo there was no smoke, only it would consume quite o lot of oil but the one I hava availible has run over 100 000km. The same with turbo removed, but then I can't keep engine at idle as it won't have maf ond other equipment.


I will check the breather and the oil return and then go killing turbo people.

Is there some kind of turbo problem that can be hard to spot and make those rebuilds fail? Those people who did it last time seamed like they really new what they were doing.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

The main problem is almost always the core itself is worn mate, and they go putting new seals etc into a worn core, rather like putting std piston rings in a 0.5mm overbored engine bore.. they look fine to teh naked eye, but dont seal properly.

Easiest way to check is let her smoke real bad for a while then shut the engine down with it smoking. Remove the exhaust downpipe and peer into teh turbine housing with mirror and torch.. if it looks "damp" in there behind the turbine wheel, the seal is almost definately leaking.

Azrael

It is smoking for some time after shutting the engine off! So there is oil burning in the exhaust. I'm pretty sure it's turbo leaking. The matter is if it's because of broken turbo or it is because of some other factor. Turbo specialist I used before kept on speaking about breather systems.
Any ideas how do I check if breather is functional? How do I get to standard breather take off - remove the intake manifold?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Breather system only creates oil consumption via crankcase backpressure pal.

Lets have a pic of your engine bay please, so what your breather arrangement is first of all.

Azrael

I ca't find a good one. It's just stock pipe that goes from the intake side of the block is connected with another part of it in front of intake and then goes in original mounts over the radiator. Then it goes upward and into atmosphere on the left of the turbo. It was like that when I bought the car and there never was any oil getting out of it so I didn't invest in breather system at first.
Is my idea good that if I remove oil dipstick the smoke schould cease or lessen if it's breather problem?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Hi,
The stock system has a breather canister between the flame trap and the pipework and this contains 6 or 7 gause filters and a one way valve that require cleaning regularly. This canister is also vented back to both the inlet and the sump and must be checked/cleaned.

Removing the filler cap may help, but soak your engine in oil, but dipstick is so small any alleviation of pressure would be negligable.

Azrael

OK will check that of course and switch to Bailey breather or similar, but....


I just went for a short spin, fired the car let it warm, and got out - short drive slowly to warm oil and some on-boost driving, then I went back and stopped. It stareted smoking after some time of course but even then - there isn't really much pressure going out dipstick or breather, only slight pulse of the air, even if I rev it when stationary. Still I have to dissassemble the oil return ond check if it's all right and the breather but I still feel lost :-(
About the breather thing do I have to remove intake manifold or will I be able to get to it somehow from below the car???

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Its possible to do from above, just a bit fiddly.
From your description im quite confident its your turbo pal.. i really am.

Azrael

Now me too.


Oil intake restrictor is the one from Garett the same as other T-25 Escos turbo I have. Breath IS functional, there isn't any crankcase pressure. There isn't anything wrong about oil return pipe. Been to turbo company they told me something about some tighter seals they could do or something. I have to take it out and give it to them once more. It's 5th or 6th time we swap turbos :-( It's becoming too costly :-((((

Thanks everyone for input and you expert knowledge. I'm very sad I didn't send it to UK to be done by somebody from here :-(

Azrael

Just took out the turbo. After just ~200km it has large play in shaft. It didn't have any when put into the car.. what's going on?

Oh I've heard a theory by the turbo man I used before that free exhaust and car spitting flaames into it from time to time is guilty of turbo failing all the time - but why then the other old battere turbo I have stands whole days of driving on the track without falling apart?

Azrael

Just put the turbo after rebuild under warranty of tyurbo company into car and took it for test drive. It started smoking after about 20 kilometers. Still it smokes only at idle and smokes REALLY BADLY. I will have to buy a turbo from one of the traders here I think. Or maybe somebody can borrow me one so I can check if car wil work fine?? (just dreaming )

I just write it to keep everybody who tryied to help me informed.. :-/

Calling turbo service tommorow, wonder what they say. Last time they said they put oversized sealing ring and that they changed the angle under which oil is sprayed inside or something so taht t wouldn't get out... but it didn't work.

For bigger misery - even tough I changed alternator and both tensioner pulleys there is still something very noisy in the engine axualiaries. And my headlamp washeers stopped working :-(

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Feel really sorry for you pal....