jogi730

Something not quite right on my Intake Manifold

http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/j...=IMcockup2.jpg

http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/j...=IMcockup1.jpg

Sorry don't know how to attach photos to include in post

Dangerous Malcolm..

RichieST

iTrader: (2)

Air intake temp sensor?

Micky

Size 9 feet??LOL Regards,Micky

jogi730

Yep
AIT directly inline with water injection.
I'm no mechanic, but I don't think that's a good idea?

jammy86

Shouldnt the W.I. be upstream of the IAT so that the sensor measures the reduced charge temp with the water added?

JAmes.

jogi730

Think it's the other way around, otherwise after water has been added, the sensor tells the ECU engine is running cold so the ECU adds more fuel. Ultimately this can lead to serious damage of the engine.
Definitely not good from a tuner that is meant to have a good reputation for knowing their stuff.

This is actually the 2nd piece of cr*p they supplied me with, the first having split badly along the welds.

Jim Galbally

dont forget tho there will be an air stream going thru there. so it'll actually be upstream of the WI not downstream

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

The sensor needs to be AFTER the water spray.

This is because it needs to measure the cooled air charge so the ecu can run correctly to what is actually happening in the cylinders.

Needs to be nearer the intake manifold so the water has time to absorb the heat from the air.

jogi730

Standalone engine managements, such as Pectel, used in this case, do not use mass air flow sensor to figure out how much fuel needs to be injected to maintain desired air/fuel ratio. Instead of such, they equip Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (hereinafter referred as MAP sensor), which measures only the present pressure in the intake plenum.

Because density of the air is highly dependant on the temperature, it needs to be measured. This is done with Intake Air Temperature sensor (hereinafter referred as IAT).

As we well know, PV=nRT. (pressure x volume = amount of substance x constant x temperature). If either of the sensor signals, MAP or IAT gets corrupted or interfered, the calculation for determing the "n" in the equation goes desperately wrong, causing the air/fuel mix to go amiss.

In the pictures You can see, the water injection nozzles point almost directly towards the IAT sensor.

Water is used to cool down the intake air, and the combustion chamber, for safer operation of a high performance motor.

In all circumstances, the water, that's being injected, is significantly colder than the air, that's entering the motor. This is due to the heat raise caused by the turbocharger, despite of the fact of using the intercoooler. Intercooler efficiency is never full 100%, but more likely around 60-80%. In these circumstances the normal intake air temperature,
on high load, in these motors is around 50-60 celsius.

When cold spray of water is directed to the sensor, the signal it gives of the temperature of the intake air, gets distorted.

This is a fundamental mistake in the setup. This flaw causes improper mixture in the combustion chamber, and therefore using the water injection, set up like in the photos attached, may cause severe damage to the motor.

jogi730

Upstream or downstream, if you take your car to a tuner and pay a lot of money to get your car right, shouldn't they know better than this?

tabetha

50-60C, mine was 26C after three hours on rollers.
Yes you should expect something decent when paying for it, but decent is open to interpretation, ie some are more decent than others.
tabetha

GARETH T

so we remove this heat from the air,,, so where does it go? as energy cant be created or destroyed!
we know different substances have different Specific heat capacitys but its still there!

generally the primary role of the water injected is to intake is to alter its chemical makeup to slow flame progression!

jogi730

Gareth,
What you say may well be the case, but the placement of the injectors to fire directly at the sensor is definitely not the way to go about it. The distortion of information can lead to engine damage.

GARETH T

i do agree BTW

jogi730

The same people smashed my car up whillst road testing my car. Took my car to a bodyshop for repairs, but the standard of these repairs was so abysmal it makes me want to cry when I look at my pride and joy. I have tried talking to them to get things sorted but they were not interested.
All out of my hands now

SteveH

...only transferred from one form to another.

Gareth, that may have been intended as a rhetorical question, but I would imagine the heat is dissipated into the water.
And what benefits would slowing flame progression down have? Maybe a new thread? Water injection tech maybe?

jogi730: Agree with your point, the sensor shouldnt be there, it should at least be offset somewhat.

GARETH T

slowing the flame progression can stop the insite of the dreaded det

jogi730

Due to the above and other problems with the car especially regarding its performance, I have now had the work carried out to my car checked out by experts.

Here are findings of some of the internals;

A turbo support was promised but none was provided. As a result, further cracking has taken place. This is apparently a crack repair to my exhaust manifold?



But far worse are the consequences of bad mapping, where excessive EGT's have done this to the internals of the exhaust manifold

jogi730

I took my car to this garage with some performance issues, in particular the car was suffering lag. A GT35R was recommended to replace a T61. I raised eyebrows, and enquired about claims that the turbo would spool and pull strongly from 2500rpm and also asked about problems regarding surge. With the work about to commence, I suggested other parts were repaired and the car tried with the T61. THis request was ignored as ther tuner was so sure the GT35R would be the better turbo, but far from improving performance and spool up the GT35R actually made things far worse.
Other work carried out was reprofiling of cams to help with spoolup and a custom intake manifold. These are the findings of the internals of the intake manifold





Comparison to what it should look like





Is this good design?
This 'custom made' intake manifold actually flowed considerably less air than a standard manifold. Needless to say, rather than help with lag, this only served to compound things and make them worse.

jogi730

I have spent a lot of money trying to get my car have some top performance.
The setup includes Pectel T6 and air injectors.
THis tuner has completely taken me for a ride (no pun intended).
Am I being unreasonable wanting my car back in the condition it was in prior to him smashing my car up and performing as it should?

swebber23

what car is it? focus st?

Name and shame

jogi730

The car is actully an Audi, obviously 5 cylinder.
It is fairly unique as it is running Pectel. My car ended up with this tuner as they appaently have a good reputation in building engines and experience setting up Pectel.

swebber23

Any pictures of the car?

jogi730

I have to be a little careful at this stage - hope you understand?
This is a pic of the engine bay though

.

TurboShed

Name the tuner.

pa_sjo

jogi730- why did you move from your previous tuner?

jogi730

I fell out with my previous tuner mainly due to frustration over the time it took him to complete work. There were no real issues over his work (had a stonking prerforming car with a t34, but regretably wanted more power), although I did not like the lag associated with the T61.

Both the T34 and T61 variants were mapped by none other than Ahmed Bayjoo! The latest tuner is also well known and will shock a few on here, but I am hoping for some sound advice of what to do?

I have learnt the hard way that if you find a good tuner, stick with him. If he is good, then things will take time due to high demand.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

I know who the tuner is.

pa_sjo

Me too but it's best to leave it to the thread starter

fuzzy

i dont get how you asked for the original stuff to be repaired and tried but he went ahead and fitted new unwanted and expensive stuff instead? was he paying the bill?

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

i think i know who it is.. but if its the tuner i think it is i cant belive it

pa_sjo

God forbid the truth get in the way of a good story

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

jogi730

I never got that part either.
SOme other information,

The Inlet manifold you see above is the second attempt.
The first attempt ended up splitting along a weld exactly the same as on the manifold I had on the car in the first place. It was advised the manifold should be cryogenically treated, but this was dismissed. The quote was "if the manifold is made properly in the first place, there should be no problems2.
This manifold then split exactly as the other one did.
The second effort seen above is a copy of a manifold known to work very well. I contacted the designer/fabricator for permission. Not only did he agree, but suggested that ther tuner should get in touch with him for dimensions and also information regarding reprofiling cams etc. This offer was not taken up and the results can be seen above.

THe tuner also tried fitting some different coils from a BMW M5. I was told by a few people that the coils would not work in my application (my old tuner called me and also a frind told me after seeing an article in a car magazine). I passed this information on, but this advice was rejected. The coils ended up overheating and needed changing back.
Having smashed my car up doing a road test, the tuner put the car in for repairs. THe poor workmanship was unbelievable with runs and scratches everywhere. Secondhand parts were used and doorshuts were not even painted (the new wing was silver!).
The car went back for another attempt. Results were no better and in fact further damage was done to my car. It was suggested I let them have another chance to pt things right. Would anyone else in my position trust an incompetant company to touch their car again?
I did have an independant report done on the car which is also very damning.

As for naming the tuner concerned, at this moment in time for obvious reasons I shall not be doing so for obvious reasons. I would appreciate anyone that knows or thinks they know also keep this information to themselves. But out of principle, I will not rest until I have a full refund and my car properly sorted.

I have gone back to my old tuner with tail between legs. I am extremely grateful to him that he did not just tell me to get lost. As said, the car WILL be sorted.

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

is this one of the big cossie tuners?

jogi730

I never got that part either.
SOme other information,

The Inlet manifold you see above is the second attempt.
The first attempt ended up splitting along a weld exactly the same as on the manifold I had on the car in the first place. It was advised the manifold should be cryogenically treated, but this was dismissed. The quote was "if the manifold is made properly in the first place, there should be no problems2.
This manifold then split exactly as the other one did.
The second effort seen above is a copy of a manifold known to work very well. I contacted the designer/fabricator for permission. Not only did he agree, but suggested that ther tuner should get in touch with him for dimensions and also information regarding reprofiling cams etc. This offer was not taken up and the results can be seen above.

THe tuner also tried fitting some different coils from a BMW M5. I was told by a few people that the coils would not work in my application (my old tuner called me and also a frind told me after seeing an article in a car magazine). I passed this information on, but this advice was rejected. The coils ended up overheating and needed changing back.
Having smashed my car up doing a road test, the tuner put the car in for repairs. THe poor workmanship was unbelievable with runs and scratches everywhere. Secondhand parts were used and doorshuts were not even painted (the new wing was silver!).
The car went back for another attempt. Results were no better and in fact further damage was done to my car. It was suggested I let them have another chance to pt things right. Would anyone else in my position trust an incompetant company to touch their car again?
I did have an independant report done on the car which is also very damning.

As for naming the tuner concerned, at this moment in time for obvious reasons I shall not be doing so for obvious reasons. I would appreciate anyone that knows or thinks they know also keep this information to themselves. But out of principle, I will not rest until I have a full refund and my car properly sorted.

I have gone back to my old tuner with tail between legs. I am extremely grateful to him that he did not just tell me to get lost. As said, the car WILL be sorted.

fuzzy

can you get the repairs done yourself and persue the donkey that fooked it for costs?

TurboShed

OMG that's outrageous.

Name that tuner!

Stu @ Claims Care Centre

iTrader: (1)

am i thinking right this is one of the top tuners in uk!!