Mad Rod back at the dyno today
04-08-2008, 06:44 PM
#161
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No its not boost lifting it as such, its cylinder pressures lifting it, boost is only one of many things that effect cylinder pressures, timing in particular.
It was running no more boost (well within 1 psi) at any point on the new inlet than it was on the old one, it made a lot more power though, and im sure had a similiar percentage rise in cylinder pressures, and thats what has seemingly killed it.
It was running no more boost (well within 1 psi) at any point on the new inlet than it was on the old one, it made a lot more power though, and im sure had a similiar percentage rise in cylinder pressures, and thats what has seemingly killed it.
04-08-2008, 07:03 PM
#162
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Ah crud, sorry, just read the WHOLE topic, which is pretty long. Shame to hear of your missfortunes, but I'm in no doubt you'll be able to rectify those issues and continue on to your goal top MPH run 
(just remembered that's what you normally do )
(just remembered that's what you normally do )
04-08-2008, 07:14 PM
#164
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With 2 failures so similar I would not only be looking at the HG and would rule out clamping issues.
Just looking at what other people use as gaskets is not the whole story as many do the clamping differently including long studding, torquing methods etc etc. Many ways to skin a cat so to speak and some are doing things way off the radar to what ford or mountune advise.
Would it be worth checking the head bolt torque after say getting up to 700/750hp of your usual routine as it is good up to here and seeing where it is at?
Couple of crap comments are just that. This public stuff is fresh air to an old forum community.
Just looking at what other people use as gaskets is not the whole story as many do the clamping differently including long studding, torquing methods etc etc. Many ways to skin a cat so to speak and some are doing things way off the radar to what ford or mountune advise.
Would it be worth checking the head bolt torque after say getting up to 700/750hp of your usual routine as it is good up to here and seeing where it is at?
Couple of crap comments are just that. This public stuff is fresh air to an old forum community.
04-08-2008, 07:20 PM
#165
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Mark, how many studs do you use?
In answer to the Norwegian car h/g question; last time I asked that out there and saw some of their engines being built they were actually using coopers rings or a custom version of them for the actual cylinder head/block sealing and then another form of gasket for the rest of the oil / water.
In answer to the Norwegian car h/g question; last time I asked that out there and saw some of their engines being built they were actually using coopers rings or a custom version of them for the actual cylinder head/block sealing and then another form of gasket for the rest of the oil / water.
04-08-2008, 07:32 PM
#166
Mark, how many studs do you use?
In answer to the Norwegian car h/g question; last time I asked that out there and saw some of their engines being built they were actually using coopers rings or a custom version of them for the actual cylinder head/block sealing and then another form of gasket for the rest of the oil / water.
In answer to the Norwegian car h/g question; last time I asked that out there and saw some of their engines being built they were actually using coopers rings or a custom version of them for the actual cylinder head/block sealing and then another form of gasket for the rest of the oil / water.
tommy field was talking to one of my workmates at totb, he also mentioned something like this, but the way it was explained to me was that it protruded into the top of the cylinder slightly (obviously the bore would be machined), and was in a kind of 'L' shape on its side so it's pretty much impossible to push out.
04-08-2008, 07:40 PM
#167
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Mark, how many studs do you use?
In answer to the Norwegian car h/g question; last time I asked that out there and saw some of their engines being built they were actually using coopers rings or a custom version of them for the actual cylinder head/block sealing and then another form of gasket for the rest of the oil / water.
In answer to the Norwegian car h/g question; last time I asked that out there and saw some of their engines being built they were actually using coopers rings or a custom version of them for the actual cylinder head/block sealing and then another form of gasket for the rest of the oil / water.
10 studs, I will be looking at the gasket first to see if it looks like a gasket problem first then look at the studs and clamping,
The last gasket showed signs of head lift but we was running 25dg ign so this would most likely be the cause of the lift,
I used the same ign this time on race as I did on pump last time so not expecting the same kind of lift as we had last time,
I feel the most likely cause was this type gasket was not as strong as the WRC we used before.
Mark
04-08-2008, 07:44 PM
#168
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tommy field was talking to one of my workmates at totb, he also mentioned something like this, but the way it was explained to me was that it protruded into the top of the cylinder slightly (obviously the bore would be machined), and was in a kind of 'L' shape on its side so it's pretty much impossible to push out.
To get these to fit the mountune liners would create a problem with the nicasil liners and would need to be custom made something I want to avoid.
Mark
04-08-2008, 08:36 PM
#169
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sorry to her about the failure. hopw u find a suitable gasket. Say if the next gasket copes with 800 plus. Whats gonna happen with 250 bhp worth of NOS?????????????
04-08-2008, 08:50 PM
#171
The 2 graphs taken today.
The pump map was on the RS500 inlet & so theres more to come from this im sure. This was a conservative map just as Mark wanted.
The first race fuel (109ron) figures saw 758bhp again with boost & ignition on the conservative side, fairly clear that the RS500 inlet had found its limits.
The inlet was changed & saw a 40bhp gain with 30torque on race.
This was the second session of our R&D being done in public & overall im happy with the response, it seems to work, only a few saddo's being negative. With the gains seen today Mark is happy with the engine spec & so sealing the gasket is now the priority, before you ask, yes there will be a part 3 to this saga in the not to distant future, with 750 pump & 800 race the targets which now seem very attainable.
Cheers Rod
If the head gasket is all thats wrong a WRC will be fitted & the car used on the pump fuel map at Fighting Torque. Pump fuel should be 750+ on the new plenum & with our Nitrous adding circa 250bhp we wont be short of Power.
The pump map was on the RS500 inlet & so theres more to come from this im sure. This was a conservative map just as Mark wanted.
The first race fuel (109ron) figures saw 758bhp again with boost & ignition on the conservative side, fairly clear that the RS500 inlet had found its limits.
The inlet was changed & saw a 40bhp gain with 30torque on race.
This was the second session of our R&D being done in public & overall im happy with the response, it seems to work, only a few saddo's being negative. With the gains seen today Mark is happy with the engine spec & so sealing the gasket is now the priority, before you ask, yes there will be a part 3 to this saga in the not to distant future, with 750 pump & 800 race the targets which now seem very attainable.
Cheers Rod
If the head gasket is all thats wrong a WRC will be fitted & the car used on the pump fuel map at Fighting Torque. Pump fuel should be 750+ on the new plenum & with our Nitrous adding circa 250bhp we wont be short of Power.
i know u will sort it Regards
Paul
04-08-2008, 09:06 PM
#173
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) or offset crank journals.
04-08-2008, 09:11 PM
#175
That is not new infact my RS500 had this over 10years ago, but back then you had to depts of machining and most leaked out the side of the water ways on the gasket, Then the WRC gasket came along and pretty much took over and no machining of the blocks needed,
To get these to fit the mountune liners would create a problem with the nicasil liners and would need to be custom made something I want to avoid.
Mark
To get these to fit the mountune liners would create a problem with the nicasil liners and would need to be custom made something I want to avoid.
Mark
cheers for the reply mark, i'm obviously not going to teach you to suck eggs, but i thought it'd be worth a mention at least
hope you get it sorted
04-08-2008, 09:12 PM
#176
04-08-2008, 09:14 PM
#178
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If you look at the data the first failuer of the gasket can be put down to to much ign causing the problem with 120ron fuel, I would have put as much in if not more on a 7.5-1 engine,The second gasket problem until I see it its currently only a guess but I belive the gasket is not as strong as the WRC one used before and on this one running 8.4-1 comp on race fuel 109 ron I used no more ign than on pump at 7.9-1 I use pre,
Most likely action will be check for faults/problem change gasket and most likely change head bolts also to a diff type,
There's no need to bother JG
I think I should have a handle on this very soonMark
04-08-2008, 09:17 PM
#179
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But this engine does have prob 100hp and 80fltb more than the last engine and over a much wider band also which high cyl pressures so the smallest issuse is a big one.
Mark
04-08-2008, 09:29 PM
#182
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, It could go in the car straight away and be ready for fighting torque at the weekend and if it doesnt blow the gasket again then all good,I would rather test again on the dyno as you catch the fault straight away with much less risk to the engine rather than on a topspeed run.
Mark
04-08-2008, 09:36 PM
#183
bugger, i had everything crossed for today.
at least things are on the up.
mark/rod - how long is this learning curve going to be?
i mean, if the h/g fails again on the next attempt, will you stick at it or call it a day?
of course as you say pushing the boundaries and trying new things is not an overnight job, but as the rest of the engine has held together so far, the h/g problem is only a 'minor' issue i guess?
fair play and i hope next time, its a goer
at least things are on the up.
mark/rod - how long is this learning curve going to be?
i mean, if the h/g fails again on the next attempt, will you stick at it or call it a day?
of course as you say pushing the boundaries and trying new things is not an overnight job, but as the rest of the engine has held together so far, the h/g problem is only a 'minor' issue i guess?
fair play and i hope next time, its a goer
04-08-2008, 09:41 PM
#184
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bugger, i had everything crossed for today.
at least things are on the up.
mark/rod - how long is this learning curve going to be?
i mean, if the h/g fails again on the next attempt, will you stick at it or call it a day?
of course as you say pushing the boundaries and trying new things is not an overnight job, but as the rest of the engine has held together so far, the h/g problem is only a 'minor' issue i guess?
fair play and i hope next time, its a goer
at least things are on the up.
mark/rod - how long is this learning curve going to be?
i mean, if the h/g fails again on the next attempt, will you stick at it or call it a day?
of course as you say pushing the boundaries and trying new things is not an overnight job, but as the rest of the engine has held together so far, the h/g problem is only a 'minor' issue i guess?
fair play and i hope next time, its a goer
Rod wants to go back to the dyno as its so close to 800hp so it would be rude not to
Mark
04-08-2008, 09:42 PM
#185
Norris Motorsport
Mark and Rod,
Well done with the progress so far, and I wish you every success for the future with this project.
However reading through this topic I've got two questions for Mark:
1. Did you measure in any way your internal cylinder pressures with regard to combustion pressure characteristics against crank angle and of course peak cylinder pressures?
2. Why do you consider that 25 degrees ignition at 7.9:1 (assuming correct mapping) was more damaging to the head gasket integrity than 14 degrees at 8.4:1?
Well done with the progress so far, and I wish you every success for the future with this project.
However reading through this topic I've got two questions for Mark:
1. Did you measure in any way your internal cylinder pressures with regard to combustion pressure characteristics against crank angle and of course peak cylinder pressures?
2. Why do you consider that 25 degrees ignition at 7.9:1 (assuming correct mapping) was more damaging to the head gasket integrity than 14 degrees at 8.4:1?
04-08-2008, 09:50 PM
#187
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Mark and Rod,
Well done with the progress so far, and I wish you every success for the future with this project.
However reading through this topic I've got two questions for Mark:
1. Did you measure in any way your internal cylinder pressures with regard to combustion pressure characteristics against crank angle and of course peak cylinder pressures?
2. Why do you consider that 25 degrees ignition at 7.9:1 (assuming correct mapping) was more damaging to the head gasket integrity than 14 degrees at 8.4:1?
Well done with the progress so far, and I wish you every success for the future with this project.
However reading through this topic I've got two questions for Mark:
1. Did you measure in any way your internal cylinder pressures with regard to combustion pressure characteristics against crank angle and of course peak cylinder pressures?
2. Why do you consider that 25 degrees ignition at 7.9:1 (assuming correct mapping) was more damaging to the head gasket integrity than 14 degrees at 8.4:1?
no 1 no measuring, equipment to hard/expensive to get hold of easly maybe sometime in the future
no 2 We see head lift problems on the Evo and Skyline engines running VP import 120rom fuel, You can just keep piling ign in you wont get it to dett so realy its down to me just getting carried away with it.
Mark
04-08-2008, 09:56 PM
#188
Norris Motorsport
Hi Mark,
So assuming you are in a non det scenario why do you think that running lots of ignition timing is causing head lift? Do you assume that the cylinder pressure formation is producing too much cylinder pressure pre TDC?
So assuming you are in a non det scenario why do you think that running lots of ignition timing is causing head lift? Do you assume that the cylinder pressure formation is producing too much cylinder pressure pre TDC?
04-08-2008, 10:02 PM
#189
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Yes, running at this power/torque/boost pressure level this fuel does react in this way.
Mark
04-08-2008, 10:02 PM
#190
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MD Cos, I think Tommy has taken that principle and modified it further as he of course built a lot of the WRC engines first time round and learned a lot then.
I understand that Jens also uses a Coopers Ring setup and then modified it further to get a proper seal.
Tommy was saying how getting it just right has taken a lot of work as too much or too little clamping force etc and one doesn't seal properly... These are both setups largely with high compression or big bhp and torque YBs and although based on what some would say is a dated idea... both have modified them further to suit their current requirements.
I do understand that without a LOT of ball ache this isn't a quick or easy fix in Mark and Rod's case though...
I understand that Jens also uses a Coopers Ring setup and then modified it further to get a proper seal.
Tommy was saying how getting it just right has taken a lot of work as too much or too little clamping force etc and one doesn't seal properly... These are both setups largely with high compression or big bhp and torque YBs and although based on what some would say is a dated idea... both have modified them further to suit their current requirements.
I do understand that without a LOT of ball ache this isn't a quick or easy fix in Mark and Rod's case though...
04-08-2008, 10:14 PM
#192
Norris Motorsport
Hi Mark,
At this power level and compression ratio, I think measuring the cylinder pressure formation and PCP against crank angle will prove extremely usefull in diagnosing failures and limits of head gasket integrity. I know it adds complexity but ultimately it will help achieve your goal "scientifically" rather than by speculation. Good luck anyway!
At this power level and compression ratio, I think measuring the cylinder pressure formation and PCP against crank angle will prove extremely usefull in diagnosing failures and limits of head gasket integrity. I know it adds complexity but ultimately it will help achieve your goal "scientifically" rather than by speculation. Good luck anyway!
04-08-2008, 10:17 PM
#193
This is the key thing I think a lot of people are missing, Mark is of course aware of many alternatives, but he/rod/etc was hoping that one of the easy to fit gas ring gaskets like used this time would work well enough to get through fighting torque, getting a solution that works isnt particuarly hard if given more time.
04-08-2008, 10:17 PM
#194
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Hi Mark,
At this power level and compression ratio, I think measuring the cylinder pressure formation and PCP against crank angle will prove extremely usefull in diagnosing failures and limits of head gasket integrity. I know it adds complexity but ultimately it will help achieve your goal "scientifically" rather than by speculation. Good luck anyway!
At this power level and compression ratio, I think measuring the cylinder pressure formation and PCP against crank angle will prove extremely usefull in diagnosing failures and limits of head gasket integrity. I know it adds complexity but ultimately it will help achieve your goal "scientifically" rather than by speculation. Good luck anyway!
I am sure it will, But until the whole system is easy to use/rent/buy this type of testing is all we have.
Mark
04-08-2008, 10:19 PM
#195
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bloody impressive and a damn shame. still live and learn.
when do you think it will go back on the rollers?
joes inlet works well then, he said they would.
when do you think it will go back on the rollers?
joes inlet works well then, he said they would.
