Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

As most of you know my car is at martins currently being modified to break the 600bhp barrier which he is in no doubt we will do. (everything is coming along nicely)

But a have a few questions that hopefully all you 4x4 cossie owners (escort or sierra) will answer.

Im looking for people bhp figures (hopefully not pub talk) and the drivetrain that they are running.

I want to especially hear from people running standard gearboxes as i keep getting told my one will shit its self at the first launch. And then some people say drive it nicely and it will be fine.

Also front diff casing is this a must have mod. Rear diff what bhp have people had from standard and how long did it last.

Whats the quickest anyone has broke any of there drivetrain after a big power project like this and does anyone runn 500hp on a standard box.

ive heard box can live with 380 all day long and rear diff the same. Front diff heard different stories on standard casing smashing itself.

Sorry about the long post but would just like to get a feel for what people think about this paticular subject (especially Tuners)

I know daves box is a sore subject but it seems ok from the vids. and the snapped driveshaft the other day opened my eyes a little.

Pics of any damage would also be great.

Sorry if this is a repost but i have not seen a conclusive post about this. Hopefully we can get a godd post going.

Cheers Guys.

rog

iTrader: (2)

Hopefully a little help to you, car was running about 360+, managed to destroy the box totally when i was in 3rd gear on the dual carriageway, so I personally wouldn't reccomend a STD box at your level, not much point in having all that Ooomph if your scared to use it incase it breaks, you'll end up hating it. As for shafts, broken loads of them, but that was patrially due to bad mounts and too much lowering.
On the diff subject, never knackered a diff but when i took the car off the road it was making a bit of a funny noise, never did find out what it was

If i were u, would opt for an uprated box as a minimum, and a front diff plate/thickwall casing. I'm sure other people on here will have more sopecific advice on what route to go down, but it's all about ££££ at the end of the day.

Good luck with the project.

Franco

iTrader: (2)

Why not just ask Martin???

rapidcossie

it will need a bara box and a big front diff minimum.....better get the cheque book out

Gordon1

we ran a 500bhp cossy on a std box and yes dont last long if driven very hard but was ok

and still has the std rear diff and all is ok

foreigneRS

i am sure that martin can tell him everything he needs to know

but it's always a good idea to get second opinions

cossiemanden

Std gearbox will deffo shit itself on the first launch no doubt.
Rear diff wil take 600-700 bhp no problems, just dont do donughts or full bore launches with slics(if in good condition).
Frontdiff is the casing that is the problem, get it plated and it will last longer, but same problem, to much grip it will blow up.
A lot of cars in the north use this setup, works WERY good, also a bit nicer to the box as it doesent have to much grip in this setup.
So my choice is std diffs(plated frontdiff) and bara box or fixit

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

Whats the point of having the power if you can't use it? ...

Mate, don't fuck about, bara box, reyland twin plat hydrualic clutch, and at LEAST a quaife / ford 909 thickwall front diff, I wouldn't bother with an ATB unit but thats down to driver preferance, and stick a 2wd rear beam and 7.5" rear diff and driveshafts in. Also use decent engine mounts like collins, and don't lower the car more than 1" as they just don't need it, and it ruins the driveshafts and invites them to pull themselfs to bits, or/& upgrade to XR4x4 fronts which are 10mm longer.

That should take a fair bit of power and torque, and still be reliable. Don't use std shit, you will be constantly worried about breaking stuff, makes the car no fun to drive. Yes it is expensive, but by the time you have fucked a few std units and payed the cost of finding and replaceing them, then the labour/ time/ getting stuck somwhere etc it won't be that much more expensive...

HTH

NEIL A

iTrader: (6)

I blew 2 boxes with around 380 bhp 3rd gear both times . I have never done a diff but did fit a plate to the front one. Now im looking for between 450 and 500 bhp so changed my drivetrain to Martins old R&D box, a gripper plated thickwall front diff and a Bara uprated rear diff. Have also got a 71/2" gripper plated rear ready justincase.

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

Im did 3rd gear on my old 4x4 saph was only running 330bhp max at the time, stripped 7 teeth of 3rd!!

steve

SillyFezzaMk1

iTrader: (1)

If I were in your position and looking for 600bhp then i'd be talking with martin about the skyline box conversion he does...it probably cost all in the same as fucking about uprating std ford stuff..buying thick walled diffs, plated diffs, gearkits, fitting etc..

Do it once and do it right; either buy bara stuff to uprate the ford running gear or go nissan through martin....

P.S. You get in car torque split and digital gear position disaply (well it is from a skyline) with the r32 box conversion and its sequential (push and pull the stick gear at a time like rally cars)..not H pattern like the bara or fixits

Looking over the years who has spent what on transmissions most big power 4x4 cars have 10k drivetrains...i'm sure martin will do you a deal for that kind of dough

Dan

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

My car has a stg 3 tune, don't know what horsies she's putting out as I've never done a run on the rollers but I have munched through 2 standard mt75's and truthfully I don't drive the twat out of the car, both times it was 3rd gear that gave up the ghost

anything more than 300 bhp imo and standard boxes won't take long to go bang,

I still have the original diff in the car and have replaced the prop and had a transfer box rebuild (standard spec)

I tend to take it easy with 3rd gear nowadays and build up the boost a bit slower rather than standing on the gas and going from low to max boost


Luciano

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

The xr4x4 shafts are 20 mm longer and won't fit (they can be modified)
the mt75 is useless
ford 9 inch rear diff
modified front shafts and at least an rand d front diff forget the thick wall casing and any form of uprated standard front diff

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

Me and a few other people run xr 4x4 shafts with no problems?
Mt75 is a limiting factor, but where is the next step?? R&D or a FFD which are lottery winners money, and dog boxes...Bara box is the best upgrade for the money IMHO, plenty of people run them at 500+BHP with no problems.
9" rear diff is 3k if you can find one
R&D front is at least 2k...

I am talking about stuff that is affordable and offers a good upgrade, or you might as well say just go x-trac all through the car

Agree with Dan that the Skyline conversion is a good plan if you want to throw that sort of money at it...

SillyFezzaMk1

iTrader: (1)

What i'm trying to put across is that even if you dont want to spend that kind of dough in one go...you end up spending it over time and hating the car everytime it breaks...

Thats why I went 2wd on my project...would have cost so much to stay 4x4. I can't warrant 7-10k on a transmission. whereas 2wd stuff will genrally take a bit more of a battering before it gives up

Dan

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

Sell your saff and buy my Sierra.

Job done.

Very track orientated obviously but as anyone who has driven it will say its a complete pussycat and very easy to drive on the road.

otherwise I agree with Will about what to do.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

thing is, 4wd is a much better way to get the pwoer down and it's more useable

but if you can't bolt a 4wd transfer box to the back of a T5 then what is the next best thing?

Mad Matt

iTrader: (2)

I am in the same sort of "problems", still wondering which front diff to choose (already have straightcut gearbox, and quaife 7.5" rear diff), but for the front, I still don't know. Don't wanna spend 2k£ in a front diff, so I will go with a diff plate/thickwall casing, or plated, don't know yet, if anyone has a great front diff for sale tell me.

Car will have around 280bhp, but has turbo restrictor and will boost to more than 32psi, so I expect quite some torque...

Mad Matt

iTrader: (2)

But for pukka parts, go here :

https://passionford.com/forum/showth...ighlight=xtrac

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Up For the night time people.

So the outcome so far is

make sure thickwall front casing is sorted while engine is out.
Rear diff can take 600hp????? (didnt think so myself)
And get a Bara box.

I know martin will know but i thought it would be a good topic for anyone that wanted the info and i would learn some stuff thats all.

Skyline conv = 10k doesnt it?

Bara box and front diff casing is well under half that isnt it or am i mistaken.

Or break mine and buy porkies lol.

Definately wanna stay 4 wheel drive. Was considering buying a 2 door shell last week but went in my mates 450bhp rs500 and the arse was all over the place.

Whats the 3k kit that martin does for the box then?

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Also are we saying that for instance

Im sitting in forth on the motorway 70mph maybe.

Some evo, subaru, m3, etc etc comes up alongside me

I shift down to 3rd plant the throttle.

Thats it

3rd gear abliterated.

Will it happen that easily? (first attempt)

Damn..... I thought it would last longer than that.

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

Quite possible, with third you have to resist going from negative boost to max boost instantainiously because you are forcing it to go and trust me it will a little more gently does it, build up the boost then plant ya foot


Luciano

markk

iTrader: (2)

i had to laugh at this reply - sorry !

i tried 4x4 shafts in a car once and you have to force them in, fucks the plunge depth completely.

as for the 'lottery winners' bit, hasnt this guy already spent over 10k on this build plus another xxx what he's going to pay martin ?

how is that lottery money, you can have an FFD 6 speed with active centre for less than £7k nowaday, and as for the 9" rear, ill sell you one for less than 3k, how many do you want ?

just really pisses me off when people will throw loads of money at have ' 6,000,000 hp yet you might as well fit a box from a 1.1 pop plus - why spend the money on the engine if you cannot drive it without it destroying transmission ?

if you havent spent 15K on the transmission its not going to be reliable - DE-TUNE THE ENGINE to suit!

Jon(M600BHP)

Hi m8, Im on my Fourth uprated box in 4 years and my second Thickwall quaife so i think any transmission with big power going through it is on borrowed time.
Heres my input
Old Ford 909 sport box(Not bad but no spares, Apparently)
R+D 6 speed( To harsh for a road car and has a nasty habit of selecting the wrong gear)
Fixit Kit( Lasted less than a month in car before it Blew 3rd gear)
Barra Kit( only used it for the first time yesterday but it seams decent)

Gearboxes have deffo been the worst part of my conversion.

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Mark

One minute you say gearbox is under 7k and diff under 3k then you say you need 15k to do the transmission.

Whats wrong with doing things bit by bit? Just take it easy until it breaks, when it breaks then replace.

not sure i need the 4x4 shafts as i dont think its that low... Martin could tell me otherwise. if so ill adjust the coilovers accordingly.

i was just a little suprised to hear that people were telling me one gear change will finish the box. But as quite a few people are telling me that it will break i better start taking note.

Does no one have any damage pics...

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

After daves aswell the bara seems like the best option. Why does one person say the rear diff is good for 600hp.

Whats limit for front with thick wall casing then. I mean were only talking about launches for power runs and thrashes with mags and stuff. Not looking to launch it on southend seafront every week lol. Might buy a 350 bhp one for a bit of fun

(try and get the wife in it lol)

Has anyone else done this?

markk

iTrader: (2)

dont forget to add the props/shafts/cv joints/clutch etc

im being honoust here with you, you know its gonna break, why spend time changing bits that you know are going to break afterwards ? do you like the inconveniance of having to be towed home ? working on the garage floor ? in the cold ? haveing to be pushed off the 1/4 mile strip ? stopping the track session cause your shit trannsmission broke again then all of the above ?

do it once pal - if it was me, i would have a pukka transmission and a low hp engine as a decent set of ratios improves your car 10 times over an extra 200hp every time mate

kennyA

I've only had an Escos for 4 yrs and still have 280ps. The first things I did was install a plated front diff and 7.5" rear diff from Bara. Then I bought the box from Bara. The only reason I didn't get an FFD was that it was about 25kg heavier.

It often surprises me when people upgrade the engines and then ask on the forum if their transmission can take it.

The standard transmission can barely take 280ps when you really ask it to. I've snapped a drive shaft clean through the middle, that took all of 2 seconds. A friend has destroyed 3 CV joints and two 3rd gears and he has only 300ps.

I shouldn,t criticise but, if your already doing 70 on the motorway there isn't much left to start dropping gears and flooring it.

much more fun on a track or rally stage, floor it down the straight just past the last braking point and then try to slow enough for the corner. Do this with only about 6 ft of space either side of the car, then you get a nice rush and still with only 300ps.

Repeat at the next corner and so on until end of stage, step out of car and feel great.

good luck with the engine.

kenny

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Yes mate i know all about rally driving (dad being semi professional and living on the isle of man for a number of years) Also been marshall on many many occasions. been forced into rallying all my life

I didnt say the transmission would be upto it, I know its not. But i had a 350 bhp cossie that i used to launch hard all the time with completely standard drivetrain and never had a problem so im you say a standard transmission cannot take 280bhp.

In my opinion if i wanted to stick with 280bhp i would drive my wifes m3 and have 50 bhp more.

Also i dont think critisising me for doing over 70 mph on a motorway on an RS forum is right. Dont tell me youre one that wont get out the way in the fast lane when someone comes haring up behind you just to prove a point.


I think im gonna go bara box thickwalled front diff and dunno what to do with rear. As for cv joints and stuff they are no real biggie.

I didnt know propshafts break too often?

And no lol i hate working on my cold garage floor but thats part of owning a big power cossie and not a slow boring fq400...

Thansk for all the advice.

kennyA

Hi

No, I didn't want to criticise you on the Forum, I was just looking more at the point that you wanted more horsepower. Normally people don't go that way to use it on the motorway, your answer has proved that point exactly. You have already experienced rallying and know what driving quick can be like. I don't think you would be interested in driving down the motorway, just the same as most cossie drivers on here.

with that in mind, I bet you saw a lot of quick rally cars and drivers with not more than 300ps. I would say that the power was not the drawback on most cars, rather the weight. Take off a couple of hundred kilos and you can almost improve times by as much as 1s per kilometer. (depending on the track). Thats a lot.

I was also surprised at my drive shaft, the break was right at the point where the circlip was located. The front CV joints, I thought these were always a weak point, especially in corners, even with just 280ps.

edited to say, I would also like to have 600ps, so I certainly don't critisice that point. good luck with the upgrade.

regards

kenny.
ps my 280ps is good enough for most M3's. just not DTM M3's

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Ok Kenny No worries mate.

Yes i know about being no more than 300hp well unless we are talking group b cars from back in the day.

Sort of what i looked up to lol.

Big power and loads of noise not always fastest round corners. I dont think a saff would be my best bet if i wanted to go round corners very quickly.

I dont think i will use 600hp on the motorway as i dont think it will be needed realistically. I do hope to do some track days and it will certainly be blasting around the mountains on the IOM when im over to see my dad. No doubt trying to keep him out of showing me what it can do will be quite a challenge.

I know i must upgrade drivetrain.

Was just secretly hoping someone would say yes i have 550 hp engine thick wall front and 3k gearbox

then i would have been happy knowing not to much outlay to make reliable.

oh well...

capri-rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72chM2fic2A

this cossie runs fixit tranny.reinforced front diff(not quiafe).standard rear diff.

full interior.sound system etc etc

same car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym3cozMEWUI&NR=1

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

that is excellent. What power is he running. Seems to launch real hard so i dont even have to worry about rear diff.

I deffo think thick wall front diff while engines out and box a bit later....

Thanks for the vid mate

Excellent

capri-rs

he claims 734 hp.


runs 10.04 quartemile

james kiely

iTrader: (5)

hi guys ,first timer.ebony,you brought back good memories of flying over the mountain in a cossie,a must do before u die.especially on mad sunday[ im sure your new toy will frighten lots of the bikers.ps your new car is going to be pure class.

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Oh yes mate i cant wait.

As i say my only fight is going to be keeping my dad out of the driving seat (to show me how to drive it lol)

Why do dads always think they can show you a thing or two about driving...

Will deffo do it when the car is ready can be quite scary up there though. He certainly scared the shit out of me in his sti...

JTECH James

iTrader: (13)

i continuously had gearbox issues at 380bhp, broke three gearboxes in a year.

it was all fine at stage 3, but the push to 380bhp seemed to much.

ive since fitted a mullit box, which has solved my probs with ease,im just building a t4 engine,box will be fine,however i am expecting diff issues at 450-500....lol.

i never launched the std boxes either...and all were low miles boxes...the last on got jammed in gear,think a bearing collapsed, was only doing 35mph in 5th,after coming off a dual carageway ,asked for some power and BANG couldnt move the gear stick..

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

settle down there!!! this is a ROAD car we are talking about here, hence a dog box will be horrid for normal use, so in that way he is limited to MT75 upgrades to keep it reasonable. Yes I'm sure you can have an FFD 6 speed, but at 7k it is over twice the price of a Bara box, and then you still have the rest of the transmission to do... I am not saying what I suggested was the be-all and end all of upgrades, just the most reasonable IN MY OPINION for the use it will get Vs Cost Vs reliability.....

Why don't you run a full works car in your Rallys??? COST ...

As regards to the xr 4x4 shaft debate, I have run them with no problems, as have friends, one who went through about 5 std cossie shafts until he fitted an xr 4x4 one that has been fine ever since.. Every man and his dog knows they are an option for getting rid of the ripped out shaft problem, look through any magazine article on the 4x4 cos and you will find it says an xr 4x4 shaft cures the problems of a low car?? ... It might be more critical on a gravel car with the longer suspension travel, I don't know, but I am only saying that this bit of advice has been around for years, and It has worked fine for me .....

9" diffs in 3.64 ratio?? PM me a price for 2 please

James

and thats with all the power of 120bhp of xr4x4 power!

& done that twice now!

JTECH James

iTrader: (13)

engine mounts normally cause that shaft issue..

re the xr4x4 shafts,i cant use them in mine,as it judders like hell when cornering,just not enough movement left in the joint imo,and i know plenty have had the same problem.

reco prop do make a shaft 10mm longer,which is a good answer,the rally guys used them,so they told me.the bare shaft is 130quid ish each.