XRTypeRS

Have just finished fitting my TechEdge (http://www.techedge.com.au)wideband AFR meter kit into my RST cab and been out for a few test runs. So far it seems that my AFR at idle and cruise is around 12.6/1 which I believe is pretty rich but this is a unavoidable side effect of having a "chipped" S2 (adjustment of the EMFPR richens fuelling ove the whole rev range). Im currently running 8 PSI boost and when booting it in 3rd AFR seems to drop to about 13/1 at peak torque. Does anyone have a view on how "safe" this is?.

The reason I decided to get a AFR meter was I took my car to a well respected tuner about 4 months ago to have the boost upped however after getting back home the car now backfires on when setup anything higher than about 11psi so being the sort of person who really likes to understand and do things himself if possible I decided that from now on I would rather trust myself to set my car up. I know that the general consensus on here is "leave it to the pros - you'll blow it up" but for me knowing how all this stuff works is a big part of the fun of owning an RS so provided its done in a careful and methodical manner (i.e. not just screw in the bleed valve and hope!) I cannot see why is should not be possible to attempt basic setting up "DIY". Obviously pro tuners can have the experience that makes a big difference - but everybody has to start somewhere!

Anyway Im not aiming for massive power, I just want to get my car running smooth and safe at 12-13 PSI if I can, I am also constructing some "DIY det cans" as shown on :-

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353

to help. Not sure if they will be any good but it seems worth a go (am also downloading as many wavs / mp3s of cars detting as I can to try and find out what to listen for!). To try and sort out the missfire I have fitted a Grp A coil and beefed up the ignition power feed with a direct heavy gauge line from the battery via a relay. Ive also cleaned up all the earth points hoping that might help.

Next step is to try and edge the boost up a bit and see what the AFR does and if I run into the missfire again - however before I do this I need a feel of what AFR I need to avoid any danger of det. When the tuner setup my car he also advanced the timing a couple of degs so Ive pulled that back to its previous position as it used to run fine there at 8PSI pre this latest setup (I admit dialling advance is something that is harder to judge and so I'll need to gen up on this some more - is it normal to add advance when "Stage 1ing" an S2? or do you stick to 12 degs?). I read that when Karl sets up his S2s he likes to see a on boost AFR of around the 11.5/1 mark which seems very rich however obviously a lot of the cars Karl does are running MUCH higher power than I will be looking at, other people have mentioned AFRs more around the 14 mark which seems a lot leaner. Has anyone got any views on what I should consider safe??

My spec is :-

1900 CVH running standard zetec pistons
standard head / cam + vernier to compensate for higher block height
Ahmed Chip
GRS Cooler
"Standards" NGK BC8RES plugs
Grp A Coil
Standard T3
Mongoose / K&N
When I test compression at op temp I get 180 ish PSI over all cylinders (a bit high I reckon?)

At 8psi car gave 166BHP / 198 lb.ft, at 13ish 181 BHP 241 lb/ft

Anyway enough ramblings, if anyone has any advice on how they tackled "home setup" or any tuners have any advice (please!) it would be very appreciated

Cheers

Stu

CraigN

with compression that high i would say 11 psi is about the limit i had a similar problem on my fiesta turbo

XRTypeRS

What was the problem you had then Craig?, the tuner I had said that it was not detting, simply the "spark blowing out", fitting new plugs etc etc helped a lot and it was fine at 14psi on the initial road test we went on but when I got home and took it to work the next day I gave it some beans down the dual carriage way and suddenly got a huge backfire, loads of black smoke etc, and it misfired for a few secs before clearing. So far I havent encountered anything that sounds like "det" (from the samples Ive heard anyway) just misfires, lurching etc.

I had a lot of popping and banging on overrun too at one point but that turned out to be a dodgy TPS (thankfully diagnosed by Stu ) this is now fixed and both shut and WOT switch signals get as far as the Fuel box connector OK.

GARETH T

XRTypeRS, sounds like you having fun mate im a keen DIY'er myself mate, try and do everything myself! I do it out of intrest and love learning, i know if i took it to a pro (which i personally think there isnt many about,, just people who THINK they are a pro) it would be done overnight, but i wouldnt leanr anything for my hpbby!

theres no reason why the DIY det cans wouldnt work, but i would also build a switch box so you could run multiple mics

XRTypeRS

Gareth I feel exactly the same, I can totally understand people who just enjoy driving their RS and dont really want to be bothered with this sort of thing, and provided they find a "real pro" to doe their tuning for them who they are happy with then thats fine. However all ive ever thought when Ive been for a "pro" setup is that they just seem to lack the attention to detail I would give if I was doing it myself and I always come away not totally convinced that evrything is a good as it could be. On a car as "simple" as an RST (i.e all you can change is about 3-4 settings) so technically its not rocket science, nor are the principles that difficult to understand - what the DIY person lacks is the experience to know what works and what doesnt and the feel to know how to progress things. Thats where I believe places like this site come in and its a pity that there arent more "heavy" techie threads on here as I believe there are lots of people on here who would love to learn but often seem to get shot down as being a "DIY Bodger" is they ask anything more complex than "what oil should I use".

Im sure everyone agrees that a bloke at home armed with a few bits of kit are never going to achive the same results as the "real" respected experts on here like Stu, Karl and alike but I think more people should give it a go as its a great feeling to know that youve done something yourself and "mastered it"

GARETH T

XRTypeRS,

flashpoint

Hi mate, I to go down the DIY route, for much the same reason the Gareth T .
I too run a wide band, by the sounds of it your running a bit on the rich side!!
At idle and part throttle about 13.5-14/1 seems to work about right on my own car
And about 12.5-12/1 at full throttle 13/1 doesn’t sound to bad as your only running 8 psi , at what sort of rpm are you seeing this kind of AFR

I have in the passed had the same kind of problem that you are experiencing, try this test, if you drive along a 70 mph in 5th off boost and then flaw it, so the boost comes in hard, and see what AFR peeks at? Before I got mine to run well it would hold back as it came on boost and then if you lifted off the throttle slightly it would pick up I found out that it was peaking at 7/1 under WOT as the boost came in and when I lifted off about 11/1 AFR. A lot of the problem was down to over fuelling after a lot of testing and making adjustments to the metering and 5th injector the car runs fine no holding back and pulls cleanly in all gears

It’s a bit of a problem that you don’t know what compression ratio your running
So its hard to say what is safe or not for your engine, what kind of a plug gap are you running

Hope this helps

Cheers

Steve

XRTypeRS

Hi Steve,

Good to hear at least one other RST owner is having a go!! . Your right mine does seem to be a bit too rich on part load but I think the tuner set it up like this deliberately as my pistons are a bit of an unknown quantity and at best are only cast zetec item and he stated at the time running rich might make them last longer. What im confused about is why my cruise setting seems over rich but my WOT reading isnt overly rich at 13. I will need to do some further testing as to be honest Ive been a bit of a chicken so far in holding it at WOT due to the huge backfire issue so maybe I havent been seeing the effect of WOT enrichment properly just on boost basic fuelling.

Your also right that the unknown CR makes things more difficult but Im hoping but Im not going for any particular power figure, I just want to extract the best I can out of my setup while remaining pretty "safe".

Im interested to hear that you have a 5th injector as the more I read about the comprimises of getting the fuel required out of the standard KE Jet the more I think it would be better to dial back the part load fuelling on the EMFPR and just add in whats needed using the 5th injector. What 5th injector do you have?, I read that some people have had good results using Stus cheapy cold start kit coupled with a proper injector mounted in the charge carrier but I assume you get some advantages using a proper mappable unit.

Being an electronics bod Ive also had some thoughts about creating some kind of circuit that would fit inline with the current feed to the EMFPR and modify this to give extra fuel where its needed yet keep part load economy. I believe this is how the old Milford K-Star system worked - im surprised more people havent gone down this route which makes me wonder if theres some problem doing this??.

Plug gap is standard 0.75mm (I assume, the tuner gapped the new plugs and I havent touched them since), I wondered about trying some different plugs (ford cossie "701"s??) as some people think that the NGK "standard " item isnt an great plug, I suppose its all down to your spec though. Anyway I shall try your 5th gear test and see what happens (at 8psi 1st!). How did you know to stop at your current settings? did it just "feel" best or did you not want to risk going further?.

Cheers mate

Stu

Switch

must admit, am curious about building home made DET cans, do u have a list of parts u purchased to make them? and also where did you get the sound files from? would like to hear samples myself.

XRTypeRS

Just been out for another test . My car runs at 8psi with the amal valve disconnected so gave it beans in 3rd / 4th and as I guessed I had not been seeing the effects of WOT enrichement on my earlier tests. Im now seeing AFRs between 11.2 and 11.5. Reconnected amal and boost peaks at about 13 PSI and then holds about 11, again AFR seems about 11.5ish . Couldnt rev it much over 5kish as ran out of road but so far so good - and no misfire!! . Will run it like this for the rest of the week and see if I get consistent results.

Quick question, for a standard chip / -31 setup what boost levels are normal, i.e. peak and held levels?.

Cheers,

Stu

XRTypeRS

Scot, check out that link in my 1st post and it shows you how to make the cans. All you need is the "Whisper 2000" unit which I found mail order on the net, some wire (maplins) and a single jump lead croc clip (my junk box!). Made it up now but havent used it in anger yet!

As for samples just searched about on the net, to be honest there arent many but there is a link to one I found on scoobynet of a scooby detting. Not the best but gives an idea

flashpoint

Nice one Stu sounds as if your getting things about write 11.5 is more like it or thoe sill a bit on the rich side at the boost your running, but on the safe side of things as for the 5th injector this helps to over come some of the problems of high boost high rpm fuelling, some people would say that you done need a 5th as you can get all the fuel you need out of the ke-jetronic, and yes you can, but you end up with car that runs rich around town and when you are at light throttle settings at speed on the motorway .
So after a lot of experimentation I now have it about right “ as right as you can get on ke-jet” when driving around town its still a bit on the rich side below 2000 rpm but then most RS turbo 2s I have set up all seem to be that way inclined at 13.5-12/1 AFR when on the motorway at 80-90 mph in 5th you get 13.8 –14.4 AFR
On a couple of long runs “ to RS shows Scotland and Holland I have covered 300 miles on 40 letters of fuel and that about 30 miles to the gallon not so bad on a 200 bhp+ car


Back to the 5th injector I’m using an XR2i injector the same as fizzy turbo injector fixed in the RST charge pipe its driven by some home made electronics “Stu sounds as if we speak the same language”
which allows me to set at what point it starts to inject and how much it injects at the moment its set to come in at boost level of 16 psi and only over 4500 rpm at witch point it adds about another 50 ml of fuel to help keep AFR happy
Question how are you controlling the boost level , are you using a bleed valve to set the boost level as well as the amal valve.

Cheers
Steve

XRTypeRS

Steve, thanks a lot for that top info mate!!, youve certainly given me confidence that doing it yourself can work if you go about it in a sensible and methodical way - which you are obviously doing!

Yes, I do have a bleed valve inline with my amal valve but at the moment its totally closed off so the boost level is just being set by amal / actuator. The actuator I have came with my donor engine and so is of unknown origin / age but I assume it is a -31. Given the way the boost is dropping back as revs rise it may well be past its best so my next move might be to swap it with a shiny new -31 ive had in the cupboard for about a year rather than messing with the bleed, given the engine is a long stroke unit already I dont really want any more boost as a spike as it already has more than enough low RPM torque, it would just be nice if it could hold the boost a bit higher up the rev range.

I have to say Im very interested in your home brewed 5th injector controller (PM on its way!! )

Thanks again mate,

Stu

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

There is nothing wrong with DIY provided you have the right tools and knowledge.

As you may now, I sell my own designed ECU's but had to learn about mapping all
by myself and eventually learned a few tricks from the pro's.
Still, I dont know every trick of the trade.

Even my current engine was mapped by myself under the guidance of a
well known tuner and this gives great confidence because if it goes bang
you have someone else to blame

However, I still would never claim to be an expert mapper and would never
tune someones car for them (except for close mates)
as this would give me sleepless nights.

I would ALWAYS recomend any car/engine be set up by a reputable tuner but it is
also good to have a go yourself as long as you accept ALL the associated risks.

Good luck

JesseT

All possible spark related problems went away for good when I fitted the Ford's EDIS wasted-spark type ignition.

I have mapped my CVH to 15.5 at cruise, 15.0 at idle, 14.5 at higher revs cruise, 13.0 at WOT without boost, 12.5 up till 0.8 bar and 11.5 at 1.5 bar boost.

flashpoint

Hi mate, bleed valves work ok on non metered air systems like cossy and fizzy turbo, but on ke-jet system they have one major drawback, as you are adding a air leak to the system some people will tell you that all you have to do is reset the AFR at idle and away you go, the only problem I have found is that the escaping boost out of the bleed valve has the effect of making the fuelling very rich as you come on boost, this can be a good think if all you have done is a death valve “sorry bleed valve” to turn up the boost, but like me your playing with the fuelling as well it can cock things up, if you adjust the boost you have to adjust the fuelling as well…………
If I were you I would remove the bleed valve and set the boost on the actuator pre load and amal valve jetting
AMAL valve warring early in the year an amal valve coast me an engine !!!!!!!!!!!
As the said valve blew apart at high rpm and subjected my engine to 30+psi I have on idea how high it went of the boost gauge, at WOT in 4th gear at 5000rpm, the engine was not keen on the idea. So before you take a look at the link do what I have now don and put a couple cable ties around the two halves of the valve to hold it together
https://passionford.com/forum/viewto...3390&highlight

Cheers

Steve

XRTypeRS

Hi Simon, I totally agree with you - I would only ever do this with my car, and if I kill it I only have myself to blame and Im content to live with that but to be honest Im yet to meet anyone in the tuning industry that I trust more with my car than myself even though I dont really know much about tuning! - I suppose its the same with anything, noone will ever take the same care with your car as you would yourself, its just a job to them - which is fair enough.

Im always facinated to know how the "pros" got their knowledge, experimentation I assume but how many engines did they melt before they got it right??

Cheers

Stu

XRTypeRS

Hi Jesse, thanks for those figures, I assume thats on your MegaSquirt setup? - hense why you ca do exactly what you like with the fuel!! . I did take a look at the MS site but I dont think Im quite ready to get that complex just yet!!

Steve, I agree that anything that adds an air leak cannot be good so I shall not be using the bleed if possible, I would think that the new -31 should give me all the boost I will need (pistons wont take any more). Took a look at your other thead, that looks nasty!!. - by the way maybe you could enlighten me on exactly what is inside an amal valve?!, I know that its some kind of solenoid that gets driven by a pulse voltage (I connected a speaker to my ECU to listen to it!! ) but why does it click when you turn on the ignition?. Ive got a switch inline with mine but if I turn it on when the engines already running it has no effect, I have to totally switch off an back on before it "bleeds" at all??.

Cheers again matey

Stu

flashpoint

Hi JesseT nice set of AFR: top: hopefully by next year I will have an fey system up and running, I have looked in the mega squirt efi system and almost built one but got side tract when the engine let go I have built a mega jolt lit which I have had running on the car to try to solve some of the ignition problems with running hi boost and keeping off boost driveability
A question if you don’t mined me asking, how did you decide on what the ignition advance retard curve should be

Cheers

Steve

flashpoint

Hi Stu, the amal valve works the same way as the bleed valve with one defence you can control it electronically with on power to the valve it works the same way as if the bleed valve it wound right in, no bleed off. When you apply power to the valve it opens, just like winding the valve right out
So an amal valve is just a solenoid valve and all it does is bleed off air, to adjust you would have adjust the calibrated orifice in the actuator hose that goes to the amal valve, if you pull the hose off of the amal valve you should find a small nylon bush pushed in to the pipe of the valve, it will have a small hole in it about 2.5 MM if you were to make this hole bigger you will end up running less boost, if you made the hole smaller you will end up running more boost.


Cheers

Steve

JesseT

I have a couple of maps from different cars so I started from a compromise that seemed logical.
Some of the maps I had access to were:
Escos smallturbo
1.8ZVH turbo
XR3i standard curves
2.2 turbo Audis

The on boost tuning I did with a Bosch knock sensor, filter, amplifier and microphones.

The fuel tuning was much simpler with the wideband meter and datalogging. I just wrote a short Labview-code that turns a datalog file into a graphical map like this:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/ulpu.tuominen/JT_kuvat/afr.jpg

May I remind all of you who have looked into Megasquirt earlier that the latest
code upgrade has:

Two separate 12x12 tables for fuelling
Two separate 12x12 tables for ignition advance
(unused tables can be used for what ever like air-injector mapping, water injection,...)
Knock based retard/advance
Launch control
Boost control with PWM
Many programmable outputs
support for wasted spark ignition
idle control
Datalogging
Live mapping
And the costs for a ecu are in the order of 100Ł.

foreigneRS

hi jesse. i couldn't believe that MS could be just 100Ł, but having checked out their website it is

problem is that it doesn't do spark control as well though, which would be nice if it was integrated. looking out for ultra megasquirt now

btw, type mega squirt into google, and ecu's is the last thing that you will find after all the results for p0rn

XRTypeRS

XRTypeRS

Steve, thanks for the Amal info, however Im still confused about why the ECU drives it with a pulsed waveform rather than just a fixed DPC level to hold it open. It then makes me wonder what effect messing about with the frequency and duty cycle of the signal going to the amal might have??.

Jesse, the MegaSquirt does seem very cool. How difficult was it to build / debug / get working compared to the TechEdge unit??, did you find the documentation and instructions good or difficult to follow. Do you feel that someone whos built the TechEdge would be up to tackleing MS??

Loving this thread now!!

Stu

GARETH T

cool thread

flashpoint

Hi Stu, as you have got your wide-band up and running, I dont think that you would have much of a proplem with with MS

Cheers

Steve

JesseT

I just wrote that it now has two 12x12 maps for ignition advance control It used to have one 8x8 map earlier. Mind you that there are numerous different software version for the Megasquirt hardware.

Putting Megasquirt together is not any more difficult than putting the WB together, but it is much more time consuming and a much bigger project.

PhilM

Cool as fcuk post.

Looking forward to playing with my S8 ECU shortly, have a close mate who Im hoping will point me in the right direction, soon as a wideband gets here I'll be learning shorly.

PS. Good to see a decent technical post by enthusiasts without all this forum warrier sh*t about "diy" tuning.

M Brian

indeed!

making me realise what you pay for though to have your car set-up!!!

FASTdan

excellent post! good to see some fellow DIY'ers experimenting!

Looking forward to installing the tech edge on my XR2TT.

M Brian

how much all in for the techedge then? postage etc?


my current DIY tuning/setup equates to running down the bypass and checking the plugs!! :blub:

XRTypeRS

LOL! Melv I think I propbably spent just shy of Ł200 for the whole setup but Im sure you could get it for less if you could find a cheap source of the lambda sensor - if your willing to make up the kit that is which is not for the faint hearted - I worked as a electronics engineer for 3 years and its was the most time consuming PCB build Ive ever done - mind you I really took my time to make sure I didnt make any mistakes.

Love having the meter on my dash though, every time I boot it now I have one eye on the boost gauge and the other on the meter, it really gives me much more confidence on my car to see the AFR head down to the 11s when shes flat out!!.

Its also really given me the taste for this stuff now, I really fancy getting myself a 5th inj made up just so I can dial down the base fuel now as im still at about 12.7:1 at cruise

If youve got the balls to give making one a go get one mate, check the website for all the cool PC monitoring, EGT monitoring expansion etc. Im sure you'll love it.

S

flashpoint

Stu, 12.7:1 at cruise, she’s going to be a bit heave on fuel mate

When I get a second I will post you some ideas I have been using to sort out the problems of on and off boost fuelling.
Have you tried to data log from you wide band unit? As this is very useful to find out how very rich the fuelling goes under full throttle


Cheers


Steve

flashpoint

"Checking the plugs" this is not a very good way of assessing the fuelling and it could all end in tears
As the plug colour and be misleading, if your intent on DIY tuning build yourself a WB of by or ready made

Cheers

Steve

GARETH T

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

ready built

DuncanK

What a top thread

Steve, your DIY skills never cease to amaze me!

On a side note, are you still thinking of putting omex on your car? Or have you changed your mind?

XRTypeRS

Thats an understatement mate!! - luckily I dont do huge miles so im not too worried at the mo but Im probably going to have to do something as I cant see it passing the next MOT that rich - given :-

0.1% CO = 14.71:1
0.5% CO = 14.27:1
1.0% CO = 14.10:1
1.5% CO = 13.93:1
2.0% CO = 13.76:1
2.5% CO = 13.55:1
3.0% CO = 13.37:1
3.5% CO = 13.19:1
4.0% CO = 12.99:1
4.5% CO = 12.82:1
5.0% CO = 12.63:1
5.5% CO = 12.42:1
6.0% CO = 12.24:1
6.5% CO = 12.06:1
7.0% CO = 11.88:1
7.5% CO = 11.71:1
8.0% CO = 11.53:1
8.5% CO = 11.36:1
9.0% CO = 11.15:1
9.5% CO = 10.96:1
10.0% CO = 10.78:1

Im really keen to go down the same route as you and get a 5th injector rigged up so I can dial back the KE at bit. Done a little bit of thinking and cant see why I couldnt make a driver just using a couple of 339 comparitors / potential dividers, a couple of 555 timers to pulse the injector and adjust the duty cycle and a power transistor driver stage (TIP31??). I thought I could get the MAP sensor listed on the megasquirt site just need to think of how to measure RPM - which sounds like it should be easy but Im a bit stumped at the mo!.

Unfortunately I havent got a decent enough laptop to do the Windows in car logging yet, and the TE DOS app isnt that good. I also am not sure my TE is working quite right as when I did wire it up to the coil the TE DOS app did not register any RPM . By the way what does your display show when you switch on?, mine reads 14.5 but I think it should be 14.7 - have you ever calibrated ur TE against a known reference?. Also have u wired up any thermocoupled for EGT measurement?.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the fuelling!!

Cheers

Stu

flashpoint

Cheers Duncan yes the Omex system will be going on the car as soon as I have rebuilt the engine as the engine that is in the can at the moment as had it day the only problem with this plan is I have to replace the engine in my black RS first, as I need the block out of that for the rebuild in the grey one

XRTypeRS “which version of Wb are you using”

Cheers

Steve

XRTypeRS

Revison 3 board, 066 Bosch sensor, LD01 display (with dull green LEDS lol!)

What is that button on the side of the LD01 for anyway???!

flashpoint

I’m using version 1.5 NTk sensor, LD01 display. I think the button you refer to be to do with manual dimming of the display?
I have found the best way of picking up the rpm signal is not to take it from the coil as this sig is very noise, but to tap in to sig from the dizzy as this a clean square wave 0-5 volts, very convenient

Cheers

Steve