Can F1 cars drive upside-down?
18-06-2007, 10:52 PM
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Can F1 cars drive upside-down?
Q: Can F1 cars drive upside-down?
A: Yes! A Formula 1 car with driver weighs 600kg, but at 100mph the cars can produce around 1000kg of downforce. So when driving on the track, a total of 1600kg pushes the tyres onto the road. Because the aerodynamic force is greater than the weight, when driving upside-down at 100mph 600kg act downwards (weight), but 1000kg act upwards ("aero-force"), pusing the tyres onto the ceiling. However, no-one has tried it!
Benni.
A: Yes! A Formula 1 car with driver weighs 600kg, but at 100mph the cars can produce around 1000kg of downforce. So when driving on the track, a total of 1600kg pushes the tyres onto the road. Because the aerodynamic force is greater than the weight, when driving upside-down at 100mph 600kg act downwards (weight), but 1000kg act upwards ("aero-force"), pusing the tyres onto the ceiling. However, no-one has tried it!
Benni.
18-06-2007, 10:57 PM
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it's all quite clever really isn't it, i was watching it yesterday as they were going around one of those corners and i was thinking how the fook does that car stay on the road!? i guess this thread kinda answers that question! 
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18-06-2007, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RWD_cossie_wil
It's not magic, It has "wings" just like an aircraft, just without the control surfaces 
.... Anything flys with the correct angle of attack 
.... Anything flys with the correct angle of attack
19-06-2007, 12:05 AM
#13
The answer is probably NO ..If you thought abound the car's aerodynamics, you were right, but let's see exactly what are the equipments and the conditions to make this happen.
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
F1 cars have two aerodynamic wings, one in the front and one in the back. The only difference is that they look exactly like an upside down airplane wing. So, instead of generating lift, they generate downforce, that sticks the car to the ground.
Many minimum speeds are reported throughout the Internet, some saying that the car must reach 200 km/h to be able to stick a ceiling, when in fact an F1 car achieves the necessary downforce at 125 km/h to 130 km/h. At 190 km/h the downforce to weight ratio is roughly 2:1.
What most people don't know is that F1 regulations prohibit the use of ground effect elements that act to increase the downforce, so the underside of the vehicle, the undertray, must be flat between the axles. Thus, the car relies only on its two deflector wings and small winglets on the sides to achieve this effect.
Unfortunately, so far no real test has been performed to prove the efficacy of this effect, or at least none has been published.
The ideal environment to do that would be in a perfectly cylindrical tunnel, where the car would start on the ground and very quickly climb the lateral "walls" to get to the "roof." However, in the time it takes the car to get from bottom to top, there would be no downforce to keep it from falling.
So, when the car will be on the "walls", it will surely fall, and this is probably since no one has attempted this so far.
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
F1 cars have two aerodynamic wings, one in the front and one in the back. The only difference is that they look exactly like an upside down airplane wing. So, instead of generating lift, they generate downforce, that sticks the car to the ground.
Many minimum speeds are reported throughout the Internet, some saying that the car must reach 200 km/h to be able to stick a ceiling, when in fact an F1 car achieves the necessary downforce at 125 km/h to 130 km/h. At 190 km/h the downforce to weight ratio is roughly 2:1.
What most people don't know is that F1 regulations prohibit the use of ground effect elements that act to increase the downforce, so the underside of the vehicle, the undertray, must be flat between the axles. Thus, the car relies only on its two deflector wings and small winglets on the sides to achieve this effect.
Unfortunately, so far no real test has been performed to prove the efficacy of this effect, or at least none has been published.
The ideal environment to do that would be in a perfectly cylindrical tunnel, where the car would start on the ground and very quickly climb the lateral "walls" to get to the "roof." However, in the time it takes the car to get from bottom to top, there would be no downforce to keep it from falling.
So, when the car will be on the "walls", it will surely fall, and this is probably since no one has attempted this so far.
19-06-2007, 12:22 AM
#16
Audio specialist
so the downforce is created by the air speed over the deflectors plus gravaty, (whatever the car weighs) so the car effectivly gets heaver the faster it goes due to downforce. strange...
i was thinking the tunnel would have to be big because you couldnt afford to have any space between the wheels for the air to pass through, you would want all the air to go over the car forcing it down hard.. so because of the radius of the tunnel there would be a gap under the center of the car... not good.
it could be possible but... it probably wont ever happen.
i was thinking the tunnel would have to be big because you couldnt afford to have any space between the wheels for the air to pass through, you would want all the air to go over the car forcing it down hard.. so because of the radius of the tunnel there would be a gap under the center of the car... not good.
it could be possible but... it probably wont ever happen.
19-06-2007, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by UnseenMenace
The answer is probably NO ..If you thought abound the car's aerodynamics, you were right, but let's see exactly what are the equipments and the conditions to make this happen.
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
F1 cars have two aerodynamic wings, one in the front and one in the back. The only difference is that they look exactly like an upside down airplane wing. So, instead of generating lift, they generate downforce, that sticks the car to the ground.
Many minimum speeds are reported throughout the Internet, some saying that the car must reach 200 km/h to be able to stick a ceiling, when in fact an F1 car achieves the necessary downforce at 125 km/h to 130 km/h. At 190 km/h the downforce to weight ratio is roughly 2:1.
What most people don't know is that F1 regulations prohibit the use of ground effect elements that act to increase the downforce, so the underside of the vehicle, the undertray, must be flat between the axles. Thus, the car relies only on its two deflector wings and small winglets on the sides to achieve this effect.
Unfortunately, so far no real test has been performed to prove the efficacy of this effect, or at least none has been published.
The ideal environment to do that would be in a perfectly cylindrical tunnel, where the car would start on the ground and very quickly climb the lateral "walls" to get to the "roof." However, in the time it takes the car to get from bottom to top, there would be no downforce to keep it from falling.
So, when the car will be on the "walls", it will surely fall, and this is probably since no one has attempted this so far.
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
F1 cars have two aerodynamic wings, one in the front and one in the back. The only difference is that they look exactly like an upside down airplane wing. So, instead of generating lift, they generate downforce, that sticks the car to the ground.
Many minimum speeds are reported throughout the Internet, some saying that the car must reach 200 km/h to be able to stick a ceiling, when in fact an F1 car achieves the necessary downforce at 125 km/h to 130 km/h. At 190 km/h the downforce to weight ratio is roughly 2:1.
What most people don't know is that F1 regulations prohibit the use of ground effect elements that act to increase the downforce, so the underside of the vehicle, the undertray, must be flat between the axles. Thus, the car relies only on its two deflector wings and small winglets on the sides to achieve this effect.
Unfortunately, so far no real test has been performed to prove the efficacy of this effect, or at least none has been published.
The ideal environment to do that would be in a perfectly cylindrical tunnel, where the car would start on the ground and very quickly climb the lateral "walls" to get to the "roof." However, in the time it takes the car to get from bottom to top, there would be no downforce to keep it from falling.
So, when the car will be on the "walls", it will surely fall, and this is probably since no one has attempted this so far.
surely if the spoilers on the car are creating downforce pushing the car onto the road why would it change if the car was upside down,the air would still be passing over the spoilers causing the same effect but the car would be upside down instead,im not trying to argue the point just interested in how iy might be different
19-06-2007, 12:33 AM
#18
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
Originally Posted by UnseenMenace
The answer is probably NO ..If you thought abound the car's aerodynamics, you were right, but let's see exactly what are the equipments and the conditions to make this happen.
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
F1 cars have two aerodynamic wings, one in the front and one in the back. The only difference is that they look exactly like an upside down airplane wing. So, instead of generating lift, they generate downforce, that sticks the car to the ground.
Many minimum speeds are reported throughout the Internet, some saying that the car must reach 200 km/h to be able to stick a ceiling, when in fact an F1 car achieves the necessary downforce at 125 km/h to 130 km/h. At 190 km/h the downforce to weight ratio is roughly 2:1.
What most people don't know is that F1 regulations prohibit the use of ground effect elements that act to increase the downforce, so the underside of the vehicle, the undertray, must be flat between the axles. Thus, the car relies only on its two deflector wings and small winglets on the sides to achieve this effect.
Unfortunately, so far no real test has been performed to prove the efficacy of this effect, or at least none has been published.
The ideal environment to do that would be in a perfectly cylindrical tunnel, where the car would start on the ground and very quickly climb the lateral "walls" to get to the "roof." However, in the time it takes the car to get from bottom to top, there would be no downforce to keep it from falling.
So, when the car will be on the "walls", it will surely fall, and this is probably since no one has attempted this so far.
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
F1 cars have two aerodynamic wings, one in the front and one in the back. The only difference is that they look exactly like an upside down airplane wing. So, instead of generating lift, they generate downforce, that sticks the car to the ground.
Many minimum speeds are reported throughout the Internet, some saying that the car must reach 200 km/h to be able to stick a ceiling, when in fact an F1 car achieves the necessary downforce at 125 km/h to 130 km/h. At 190 km/h the downforce to weight ratio is roughly 2:1.
What most people don't know is that F1 regulations prohibit the use of ground effect elements that act to increase the downforce, so the underside of the vehicle, the undertray, must be flat between the axles. Thus, the car relies only on its two deflector wings and small winglets on the sides to achieve this effect.
Unfortunately, so far no real test has been performed to prove the efficacy of this effect, or at least none has been published.
The ideal environment to do that would be in a perfectly cylindrical tunnel, where the car would start on the ground and very quickly climb the lateral "walls" to get to the "roof." However, in the time it takes the car to get from bottom to top, there would be no downforce to keep it from falling.
So, when the car will be on the "walls", it will surely fall, and this is probably since no one has attempted this so far.
surely if the spoilers on the car are creating downforce pushing the car onto the road why would it change if the car was upside down,the air would still be passing over the spoilers causing the same effect but the car would be upside down instead,im not trying to argue the point just interested in how iy might be different
19-06-2007, 12:42 AM
#20
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
so if uve got 1000 kg + of downforce against the 600kg of the car and so on like in the diagrams at the top surely it would work no
19-06-2007, 12:46 AM
#21
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
so if uve got 1000 kg + of downforce against the 600kg of the car and so on like in the diagrams at the top surely it would work no
The problem is when you are halfway up the tunnel wall.
You have 1000kg of downforce acting in this direction --->
and 600kg of weight acting downwards.
19-06-2007, 01:01 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
so if uve got 1000 kg + of downforce against the 600kg of the car and so on like in the diagrams at the top surely it would work no
The problem is when you are halfway up the tunnel wall.
You have 1000kg of downforce acting in this direction --->
and 600kg of weight acting downwards.
, Unless you are travelling at EXACTLY the speed where Lift=weight=drag=thrust, then the car will either climb or fall. More speed = more lift, which means it will "stick" to the tunnel, air under the car does not matter really, as the lift is being generated by the wings of the car, not the undertray..You need the excess speed to generate enough lift to get you past the "halfway" point of the tunnel, remember an aeroplane will Stall unless flying speed and a flying angle of attack is maintained over the aerofoil
It is excess THRUST (power) that makes an aircraft climb, not excess lift
19-06-2007, 01:06 AM
#23
old shonky bikes used to do it on the speed walls 
via the g force
metaphorically speaking the power of a f1 car could boost up the space needed to hit the roof ..but i dont want to be the driver..
and i dont think the engine. would work very well running upside down
via the g forcemetaphorically speaking the power of a f1 car could boost up the space needed to hit the roof ..but i dont want to be the driver..
and i dont think the engine. would work very well running upside down
19-06-2007, 06:56 AM
#24
Originally Posted by UnseenMenace
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
the air going over the top makes the air going underneath push the wing up, so if you do it the other way around it pushes the wing down
but, as mentioned previously, it may work while it's upside down, but it would fall over when it tried to get up the wall, unles you wanted to stick it inside a partical accelerator, in which case the G force would probably limit what it was going to do
19-06-2007, 07:38 AM
#25
Testing the future
Originally Posted by dojj
Originally Posted by UnseenMenace
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
the manufacturers of the cars know for a fact that it will work, and at what speed. they have measurements from the windtunnel of downforce vs speed. that's the easy bit. as said, the transition from right way up to upside down is the tricky bit, but can be done easily with the right shaped ramp - remember the barrel roll river jump stunt from bond?
19-06-2007, 08:41 AM
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if you got up enough speed and more to create the amount of downforce needed surely if you had a big enough tunnel to get the car round the wall wouldnt the speed and g-force keep you on the wall if you attacked it at enough of an angle
19-06-2007, 08:50 AM
#28
............
Originally Posted by UnseenMenace
First, let's take a look at a plane. The wing of an airplane produces lifting force. Lifting is a mechanical force generated by a solid object moving through a fluid. The shape of the wing directs the airflow so that the air moving over the top of the wing is moving faster, thus creating an area of lower pressure than the one beneath.
The pressure difference lifts the airplane off the ground when a certain speed is reached, and that depends on the propulsion system and wing
finetuning.
.
19-06-2007, 08:51 AM
#29
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i was talking to a guy who works with some of the engineers for the old arrows F1 team, and im sure he said that it was possible, theoretically, but there were too many variables that could let the car fall... pluis the problem of how to get the fuel, once the car was upside down... so there would be too many alterations to make it possible as a PR stunt...
19-06-2007, 08:52 AM
#30
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
surely if the spoilers on the car are creating downforce pushing the car onto the road why would it change if the car was upside down,the air would still be passing over the spoilers causing the same effect but the car would be upside down instead,im not trying to argue the point just interested in how iy might be different
19-06-2007, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by UnseenMenace
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
surely if the spoilers on the car are creating downforce pushing the car onto the road why would it change if the car was upside down,the air would still be passing over the spoilers causing the same effect but the car would be upside down instead,im not trying to argue the point just interested in how iy might be different
19-06-2007, 08:57 AM
#32
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
if you got up enough speed and more to create the amount of downforce needed surely if you had a big enough tunnel to get the car round the wall wouldnt the speed and g-force keep you on the wall if you attacked it at enough of an angle
19-06-2007, 09:02 AM
#33
good topic
Im curious regarding the fueling and lubricant issue and demands of the engine and wonder how that would be effected of if you could overcome this by exceptionally high pressure.
Im curious regarding the fueling and lubricant issue and demands of the engine and wonder how that would be effected of if you could overcome this by exceptionally high pressure.
19-06-2007, 09:03 AM
#34
Testing the future
'weight' is the mass of the vehicle multiplied by the gravitation pull in the downward direction. that does not change while the car is still on this planet
19-06-2007, 09:37 AM
#36
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The spoliers on the F1 car will work fine to stick the car to a wall in just the same way as they work to stick the car to the floor, or ceiling. So long as air is flowing over them they will provide a force in the desired direction.
19-06-2007, 09:56 AM
#37
............
Originally Posted by Phil
The spoliers on the F1 car will work fine to stick the car to a wall in just the same way as they work to stick the car to the floor, or ceiling. So long as air is flowing over them they will provide a force in the desired direction.
With the car on the floor or ceiling the net force acts in a vertical plane.
So with a weight of 600kg and a downforce of 1000kg there is a net effect of 400kg pressing into the car on the ceiling or 1600kg on the floor
with the car at right angles on the wall there is an force of 1000kg acting on the car ( at 90 degrees to the floor ) and a force of 600kg ( the weight ) acting downwards, which isnt the same
19-06-2007, 10:01 AM
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The force acting sideways against the wall is still greater than the weight acting downwards though. Therefore using the 1000kg of horizontal force from the downforce, the tyres would need to be able to provide 600kg of vertical force (friction) to counteract the weight of the car.
19-06-2007, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
If Benni gives it a go it will be like time of the month.
wings right next to a cunt
wings right next to a cunt
Anyway I don't understand most of the replies but from what I can understand it would work if you could get it onto the roof but as you can't it's pointless?
19-06-2007, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Originally Posted by jonesymk2
so if uve got 1000 kg + of downforce against the 600kg of the car and so on like in the diagrams at the top surely it would work no
You have 1000kg of downforce acting in this direction --->
and 600kg of weight acting downwards.
Any car given sufficient speed would do a loop the loop, with or without wings wouldn't it ?