Block fault
29-05-2007, 06:23 AM
#1
10K+ Poster!!
Thread Starter
Block fault
I decided to strip down the engine today that I had purchased for my escort project.
It had only done around 5k from being built with a new block so I wasn't overly happy to find this when I removed the head.
My reason for stripping the engine was to have it long studded anyway which I am told should cover this problem, I'm hoping that is correct as I dont fancy throwing a nearly brand new 200 block anyway
What pissed me off more was the fact the head had been fitted with clear damage to the face, quite annoying as clearly you can see its not long been skimmed and the damage is fresher than the skim due to the odd raised part of alloy.
Does anyone have the heights for a 2wd cylinder head as I want to work out of it can be skimmed again, again it would be a shame to have to put a ported head in the bin.
Most irritating thing is that the engine was all freshly built and surely the block shouldn't fail so early, the head does seem to be on its limit but I would need to measure it to be sure.
Heres the pictures of the head as I removed it, note the marks and indents in the head gasket caused from the marks in the face of the head.
The main thing is will the block be safe to go again as thats the most expensive part to replace
It had only done around 5k from being built with a new block so I wasn't overly happy to find this when I removed the head.
My reason for stripping the engine was to have it long studded anyway which I am told should cover this problem, I'm hoping that is correct as I dont fancy throwing a nearly brand new 200 block anyway
What pissed me off more was the fact the head had been fitted with clear damage to the face, quite annoying as clearly you can see its not long been skimmed and the damage is fresher than the skim due to the odd raised part of alloy.
Does anyone have the heights for a 2wd cylinder head as I want to work out of it can be skimmed again, again it would be a shame to have to put a ported head in the bin.
Most irritating thing is that the engine was all freshly built and surely the block shouldn't fail so early, the head does seem to be on its limit but I would need to measure it to be sure.
Heres the pictures of the head as I removed it, note the marks and indents in the head gasket caused from the marks in the face of the head.
The main thing is will the block be safe to go again as thats the most expensive part to replace
29-05-2007, 12:16 PM
#4
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: in the nite garden
Posts: 5,730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by abdr500
no you will need a new block but i that must of happed when the head was fitted fluid must off been in the head bolt hole and hydrolyic the block
29-05-2007, 12:19 PM
#5
from the looks of it the head will take a nother skim, it's all dto do with the metal left around where the valves stic out, a picture is worth a htousand words etc in this case for a proper explanaiton
i don't know about the crack in teh blok though, it would seem that with a studding it will be ok as you won't have the stresses involved with keeping the threads in the hole pulling the head down
on the other hand, if you have a crack thats going from teh water jacket into the oil galleries then you're fucked
i don't know about the crack in teh blok though, it would seem that with a studding it will be ok as you won't have the stresses involved with keeping the threads in the hole pulling the head down
on the other hand, if you have a crack thats going from teh water jacket into the oil galleries then you're fucked
29-05-2007, 01:01 PM
#6
PassionFord Post Whore!!
My blocks done exactly the same but a bit worse tbh and its scrap, just take all the good its out and re block it. Think of it this way its a good reason to strip it and freshen it up with new bearings etc anyway(well thats what i'm trying to ease the pain with lol)
.
Trending Topics
29-05-2007, 01:23 PM
#8
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Mike Rainbird
Are arp stud and nut kits really that bad???????????????????????
What is the main cause of this happening as i dont fancy my new block doing the same thing tbh???????????????????????
Are arp stud and nut kits really that bad???????????????????????
What is the main cause of this happening as i dont fancy my new block doing the same thing tbh???????????????????????
29-05-2007, 01:29 PM
#9
ive actually took my arps out and went normal head bolts
as ive read to many bad stories about the arps causing block failure
something to do with people over tightening them to there specific torque settings
even though mine weer done as per instructions i couldnt tae the risk as i dont want to scrap my engine just yet as i havt even ran it up yet!
as ive read to many bad stories about the arps causing block failure
something to do with people over tightening them to there specific torque settings
even though mine weer done as per instructions i couldnt tae the risk as i dont want to scrap my engine just yet as i havt even ran it up yet!
29-05-2007, 03:58 PM
#12
10K+ Poster!!
Thread Starter
Thanks so far people.
The engine had covered approx 5k since being built up from a fresh 200 block.
It had been nothing but trouble, sometimes down to the owner but now I'm starting to believe it wasn't just him.
After a top speed run at around 4k it let go big time, so much so it needed a full rebuild and a liner was fitted to number 3, after running it in white smoke kept pouring from the exhaust which turned out to be a cracked cylinder head (which you would of thought would of been pressure tested after such a engine failure)
A new so called well ported cylinder head was fitted for a rather hefty amount considering it wasn't really the owners fault it let go, then the turbo went and then a few hundred miles later the owner wrote the car off .
Considering how much money my mate had ploughed into it I offered to buy it from him and help him break the car up, after the serious spending he had done I was quite shocked to strip the engine down and find this damage !
The head has been skimmed to the point where its skimmed off part of the exhaust ports, ofcourse until I measure it i cant be sure if its safe to use but if its nearly on its limit its hardly worth me getting a load of work done to it.
Mike- The engine was fitted with standard head bolts.
The engine had covered approx 5k since being built up from a fresh 200 block.
It had been nothing but trouble, sometimes down to the owner but now I'm starting to believe it wasn't just him.
After a top speed run at around 4k it let go big time, so much so it needed a full rebuild and a liner was fitted to number 3, after running it in white smoke kept pouring from the exhaust which turned out to be a cracked cylinder head (which you would of thought would of been pressure tested after such a engine failure)
A new so called well ported cylinder head was fitted for a rather hefty amount considering it wasn't really the owners fault it let go, then the turbo went and then a few hundred miles later the owner wrote the car off .
Considering how much money my mate had ploughed into it I offered to buy it from him and help him break the car up, after the serious spending he had done I was quite shocked to strip the engine down and find this damage !
The head has been skimmed to the point where its skimmed off part of the exhaust ports, ofcourse until I measure it i cant be sure if its safe to use but if its nearly on its limit its hardly worth me getting a load of work done to it.
Mike- The engine was fitted with standard head bolts.
29-05-2007, 04:26 PM
#13
10K+ Poster!!
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Cosworth Rallyesport
Originally Posted by abdr500
no you will need a new block but i that must of happed when the head was fitted fluid must off been in the head bolt hole and hydrolyic the block
Another would maybe be that the head bolt has bottomed out and whilst setting the correct torque it has cracked the block ?
I think the first is more likely but either way its too late now, I'm hearing conflicting stories on long studs fixing it or not.
Sourced a long stud block already IF i need to replace this one but fook me its pricey so could do with some more opinions on the matter
29-05-2007, 05:33 PM
#15
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: enfield
Posts: 3,905
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JonnyBravo
Originally Posted by Cosworth Rallyesport
Originally Posted by abdr500
no you will need a new block but i that must of happed when the head was fitted fluid must off been in the head bolt hole and hydrolyic the block
Another would maybe be that the head bolt has bottomed out and whilst setting the correct torque it has cracked the block ?
I think the first is more likely but either way its too late now, I'm hearing conflicting stories on long studs fixing it or not.
Sourced a long stud block already IF i need to replace this one but fook me its pricey so could do with some more opinions on the matter
29-05-2007, 05:36 PM
#16
my block had a similer crack in it and repaired with no probs but it wasent connecting the water jackets to oil galleries,so it was proffesionally repaired,i was told there was no stress at this point,but after i took head off after 120 miles there was very small pitting in the repair but once it was decked and head skimmed,put together with cometic multilayer it doesnt leak or anything
also its a 200 long studded with mountune 6`s
wish i had taken pics
also its a 200 long studded with mountune 6`s
wish i had taken pics
29-05-2007, 06:06 PM
#17
10K+ Poster!!
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Alps Pacino
just scrap the fucking block and buy a 205 block, you can pick a decent low milage standard bore block up for under 100 notes 
29-05-2007, 06:50 PM
#19
i had the same problem with my old block. i just replace the block with a new one & had it long studded, problem sorted. i was told it was caused by the boost plus heat ect trying to lift the head off the block, causing the block to crack at the weakest point. i would also like to know if a cracked block like this could be re used if long studded as i still have the old one.
29-05-2007, 07:00 PM
#20
PassionFord Post Troll
Personally I would change the block, as I'd always be wondering if something was about to let go at any time. It would always be on my mind, so I'd change it just for the peace of mind it would give me in the future.
If it's a big spec engine (you mentioned 500bhp.....then NO WAY would I build a Big Output engine on a cracked or repaired block), With even 400 bhp, your stressing the block alot more than it was designed for in the first place, so why risk putting more power through the block than it was designed for............"knowing that the block your using is defective or has a fault" before you even start.
I know it's a costly move, but if anything went wrong in the future.....Head Gasket, White Smoke.....etc, you'll always be wishing you'd replaced the block. If your seriously talking 500bhp, then you need the best of everything, and to start the whole project of with a cracked block is a big No No.
If you bought a Big BHP engine from one of the engine builders on here....would you still want it if you found out it had been built around a cracked or repaired block................
And I'd rather risk building the engine around a good 205 block, rather than a cracked 200 one.
Just realized how much I waffled on.....But I think you get what I'm trying to say.
If it's a big spec engine (you mentioned 500bhp.....then NO WAY would I build a Big Output engine on a cracked or repaired block), With even 400 bhp, your stressing the block alot more than it was designed for in the first place, so why risk putting more power through the block than it was designed for............"knowing that the block your using is defective or has a fault" before you even start.
I know it's a costly move, but if anything went wrong in the future.....Head Gasket, White Smoke.....etc, you'll always be wishing you'd replaced the block. If your seriously talking 500bhp, then you need the best of everything, and to start the whole project of with a cracked block is a big No No.
If you bought a Big BHP engine from one of the engine builders on here....would you still want it if you found out it had been built around a cracked or repaired block................
And I'd rather risk building the engine around a good 205 block, rather than a cracked 200 one.
Just realized how much I waffled on.....But I think you get what I'm trying to say.
29-05-2007, 07:04 PM
#21
Fucking superstar........
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Argyll.... It's lonely...
Posts: 13,240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jim Green
Personally I would change the block, as I'd always be wondering if something was about to let go at any time. It would always be on my mind, so I'd change it just for the peace of mind it would give me in the future.
If it's a big spec engine (you mentioned 500bhp.....then no way would I build an engine on a cracked block), your stressing the block more than it was designed for in the first place, so why risk putting more power through the block than it was designed for............"knowing that it's a defective block".
I know it's a costly move, but if anything went wrong in the future.....Head Gasket, White Smoke.....etc, you'll always be wishing you'd replaced the block.
If it's a big spec engine (you mentioned 500bhp.....then no way would I build an engine on a cracked block), your stressing the block more than it was designed for in the first place, so why risk putting more power through the block than it was designed for............"knowing that it's a defective block".
I know it's a costly move, but if anything went wrong in the future.....Head Gasket, White Smoke.....etc, you'll always be wishing you'd replaced the block.
Best bit of advice all day
29-05-2007, 07:25 PM
#23
agree with Jim.
but.....
the block can be welded up,flattened out and the block long studded,therefore the original threaded holes are made bigger with the long studs passing through them and bolting in lower into the block,so no stress whatsoever on the cracked bit.
but.....
the block can be welded up,flattened out and the block long studded,therefore the original threaded holes are made bigger with the long studs passing through them and bolting in lower into the block,so no stress whatsoever on the cracked bit.
29-05-2007, 07:29 PM
#24
PassionFord Post Whore!!
dave cos4x4
But they dont jst crack across the block face mine ha cracked right down the water ways about 2" into the block so imo there is no chance of a repair
But they dont jst crack across the block face mine ha cracked right down the water ways about 2" into the block so imo there is no chance of a repair
29-05-2007, 07:34 PM
#25
PassionFord Post Troll
Mmmmmm.....I'd certainly be willing to have it welded and long studded to save the block if I was rebuilding it to standard or close to standard spec.
But Jonny is talking about a 500bhp Big Output engine..........That's not the place for a repaired or cracked block.
ALPS : Exactly.....How far has the crack gone down the block.....it's not just the surface that cracks, that crack is slowly making it's way south.......and certainly will start travelling alot quicker once you start putting the stresses of 500bhp through it.
But Jonny is talking about a 500bhp Big Output engine..........That's not the place for a repaired or cracked block.
ALPS : Exactly.....How far has the crack gone down the block.....it's not just the surface that cracks, that crack is slowly making it's way south.......and certainly will start travelling alot quicker once you start putting the stresses of 500bhp through it.
29-05-2007, 07:35 PM
#26
not too sure on that,but if its welded up as low as possible then flatted off,hole made bigger etc.....then as long as there is no stress at that point,which there won't,and as long as the head gasket seals up,which it should....i cannot see no reason for it not working.
even if it is cracked down below,what wil now make it worse....there is no stress in that area.
even if it is cracked down below,what wil now make it worse....there is no stress in that area.
29-05-2007, 08:35 PM
#28
Hi all,
I just would like to get some facts out about this engine as im truly peed off about it and what the engine builders did and didnt do! (I have NOT come here for a slagging match but just to tell the truth!)
I am the old owner of the engine that was sold in very good faith to Mr JB.
My post may rant on and for that im sorry to all PF users.
This was my first ever Rs Cosworth and only owned in the matter of days before I blew it up on a top speed run hitting the rev limiter in 5th 3 times (3rd time went proper bang!) and was at 171mph after the gprs caught up 5 seconds later! lol
So my questions I have if anyone could help please is ?
1st question What would of caused the block to crack ?
2nd question can this be fixed via long studding /welding etc ?
3rd question could this of been caused by my stupid top speed run and when it blew it cracked the block ?
Anyways after my top speed run and on the Monday morning I rang the engine builders who built the car thinking it was a good thing as they knew the engine etc
They picked the car up o the Monday night out of hours, that was impressive as are semi local to me and then took 2 months for them to rebuild it back to 350bhp spec!
Well they rang me with the bad news of I blew a few pistons and were proper melted and the block would need a liner put in on no.3.
At this point I wasnt sure what that ment but I said carry on as I trust you .
Well after a few weeks I rang up to say I wanted a new head as it was on its last skim and while I had the money it would be a good idea but I never had my call returned!
After a few more weeks I got a call saying the car is ready to go with the old head even though I wasnt to happy I took the car and thought it would be ok and I get a new head at a later date!
Well from me having the car back is where all the problems started and the list goes on
I used the car for 3 days and the gearbox blew up so off back for a rebuilt gearbox Ł850
Then got the car back again and used the car for less than 3 days and the turbo blew up so off back we go for another turbo Ł600 T34 and fitted Bargin imo
Well during this time I started losing coolant and misfire like a bitch but they said its fine fobbing me off. And in the end I turned up down at there workshop saying its not right what so ever and then they took it apart to find the head was cracked from the blow up I had (Even though they told me it was pressure tested and fine!) (Think they was lying imo!)
So they fitted me for the cost of Ł900 a port and polished head (Ł200 cometic H/D) that was suppose to be the mutts to find out it wasnt a very good job on the port and polishing then to find today the head was taken off ready for long studding to see the block has a crack in it and the head looks like its been in a game of football!
Also other things they did for me was my ecu packed up to they sold me another forgetting the price.
Then my loom caught fire near the ecu so had a new looms for Ł400
My lifters went hard so another Ł250
My brakes failed 1 night after they had fixed them and pi55ing brake fluid all over the floor and had a pretty hairy moment! (They fixed for free as I spat my dummie!)
And the list goes on!
I feel so peed off as its looks like its just been slapped together and Ive had the pi55 taken out of me!
All in all I spent 13k with this well known engine tuner to find this!
13k was for other stuff to but this is the main things.
I now feel very bad for my mate who brought the engine in good faith!
Im not sure what the next port of call will be but im sure Mr JB will say
Here are a few pics of when I blew the engine up and what the car was!
I did love this car but got crashed out of my control by a bloody Clio driver LESS than 1 week after the new head had been fitted and JB and my self stripped and sold the bits for me to buy another Rs Cosworth!
Also would like to add the last week the car was alive it was pure mental and was only used 3 times with the total mles of 289 miles!!! 289 miles was from when the head was fitted!
Cheers!
cossie-nutter
I just would like to get some facts out about this engine as im truly peed off about it and what the engine builders did and didnt do! (I have NOT come here for a slagging match but just to tell the truth!)
I am the old owner of the engine that was sold in very good faith to Mr JB.
My post may rant on and for that im sorry to all PF users.
This was my first ever Rs Cosworth and only owned in the matter of days before I blew it up on a top speed run hitting the rev limiter in 5th 3 times (3rd time went proper bang!) and was at 171mph after the gprs caught up 5 seconds later! lol
So my questions I have if anyone could help please is ?
1st question What would of caused the block to crack ?
2nd question can this be fixed via long studding /welding etc ?
3rd question could this of been caused by my stupid top speed run and when it blew it cracked the block ?
Anyways after my top speed run and on the Monday morning I rang the engine builders who built the car thinking it was a good thing as they knew the engine etc
They picked the car up o the Monday night out of hours, that was impressive as are semi local to me and then took 2 months for them to rebuild it back to 350bhp spec!
Well they rang me with the bad news of I blew a few pistons and were proper melted and the block would need a liner put in on no.3.
At this point I wasnt sure what that ment but I said carry on as I trust you .
Well after a few weeks I rang up to say I wanted a new head as it was on its last skim and while I had the money it would be a good idea but I never had my call returned!
After a few more weeks I got a call saying the car is ready to go with the old head even though I wasnt to happy I took the car and thought it would be ok and I get a new head at a later date!
Well from me having the car back is where all the problems started and the list goes on
I used the car for 3 days and the gearbox blew up so off back for a rebuilt gearbox Ł850
Then got the car back again and used the car for less than 3 days and the turbo blew up so off back we go for another turbo Ł600 T34 and fitted Bargin imo
Well during this time I started losing coolant and misfire like a bitch but they said its fine fobbing me off. And in the end I turned up down at there workshop saying its not right what so ever and then they took it apart to find the head was cracked from the blow up I had (Even though they told me it was pressure tested and fine!) (Think they was lying imo!)
So they fitted me for the cost of Ł900 a port and polished head (Ł200 cometic H/D) that was suppose to be the mutts to find out it wasnt a very good job on the port and polishing then to find today the head was taken off ready for long studding to see the block has a crack in it and the head looks like its been in a game of football!
Also other things they did for me was my ecu packed up to they sold me another forgetting the price.
Then my loom caught fire near the ecu so had a new looms for Ł400
My lifters went hard so another Ł250
My brakes failed 1 night after they had fixed them and pi55ing brake fluid all over the floor and had a pretty hairy moment! (They fixed for free as I spat my dummie!)
And the list goes on!
I feel so peed off as its looks like its just been slapped together and Ive had the pi55 taken out of me!
All in all I spent 13k with this well known engine tuner to find this!
13k was for other stuff to but this is the main things.
I now feel very bad for my mate who brought the engine in good faith!
Im not sure what the next port of call will be but im sure Mr JB will say
Here are a few pics of when I blew the engine up and what the car was!
I did love this car but got crashed out of my control by a bloody Clio driver LESS than 1 week after the new head had been fitted and JB and my self stripped and sold the bits for me to buy another Rs Cosworth!
Also would like to add the last week the car was alive it was pure mental and was only used 3 times with the total mles of 289 miles!!! 289 miles was from when the head was fitted!
Cheers!
cossie-nutter
29-05-2007, 08:44 PM
#29
not good new mate.
who was the tuner though.
as far as i know,them cracks are caused by not cleaning the holes out,oil/water still in,then torqued down.
there may be other ways for the block to crack in this way but i think Tim may have better knowledge on this.
i remember taking my head off and it was cracked in the same way....but it ran ok though.
who was the tuner though.
as far as i know,them cracks are caused by not cleaning the holes out,oil/water still in,then torqued down.
there may be other ways for the block to crack in this way but i think Tim may have better knowledge on this.
i remember taking my head off and it was cracked in the same way....but it ran ok though.
29-05-2007, 08:52 PM
#32
PassionFord Post Whore!!
I aint being funny but that head looks well beyond repair on no3 after the blow up, so how did they manage to reuse it, did they just chisle the bits f molten piston off the head
29-05-2007, 09:17 PM
#34
10K+ Poster!!
Thread Starter
Thanks Mel for your explanation of how the problems first come about.
I obviously knew of all the problems you had with the engine but finally besides the liner I couldn't see there being a problem with the engine.
regarding the power I'm looking for, I hope for a genuine 450bhp off gas and anything from 100-150 extra on the gas for the strip.
I will be dropping the block off to my tuner who has never let me down or taken the piss (except for his time to do anything )
Thanks for all the advice and the Pm with the useful info
Fingers crossed its salvagable but I'm not holding out any hope
I obviously knew of all the problems you had with the engine but finally besides the liner I couldn't see there being a problem with the engine.
regarding the power I'm looking for, I hope for a genuine 450bhp off gas and anything from 100-150 extra on the gas for the strip.
I will be dropping the block off to my tuner who has never let me down or taken the piss (except for his time to do anything
)Thanks for all the advice and the Pm with the useful info
Fingers crossed its salvagable but I'm not holding out any hope
29-05-2007, 09:17 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Alps Pacino
I aint being funny but that head looks well beyond repair on no3 after the blow up, so how did they manage to reuse it, did they just chisle the bits f molten piston off the head
I paid for a 2nd hand but new to me head that was port and polished! thats the head that JB posted not the head ive posted lol
29-05-2007, 09:18 PM
#36
10K+ Poster!!
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Alps Pacino
I aint being funny but that head looks well beyond repair on no3 after the blow up, so how did they manage to reuse it, did they just chisle the bits f molten piston off the head
