Micky The Finn

i find its best to run along the edge and occasionally drop a wheel over it then dont push any faster to be safe,

i see almost what your saying mike,but i think i really fast driver will actually adapt to the car he is driving,if something isnt right they can drive around it,coming from a rallying background you often have to drive 5 or 6 miles with say a puncture or even a whole wheel missing.

Micky The Finn

plus his corner speed would be so much faster due to his weight,ive been to go kart tracks and set fastest lap times in the past,and iam 16.5 stone.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Yes, but my point is, the ONLY reason they can do that, is that a good driver understands what the car is telling him, so drives accordingly . A bad driver does not understand what the car is telling him and does not adapt a driving style to suit, and cannot understand / grasp why they are spinning off track every corner .

Micky The Finn

i never even mentioned bad drivers,i was only talking about good drivers.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

But to understand the reasons why a good driver is good, you have to understand why a bad driver is bad . A good driver will adapt to a style to suit what the car is communicating to him, whereas a bad driver will drive his own way what-ever . Pretty obvious I thought .

Micky The Finn

dont talk bollocks mike,

Deleted by Request

...bollocks are Mikes forte

Micky The Finn

a good driver is a good driver,they do their own thing,they do not need or even care to know why a bad driver is bad,they should be a few miles further up the road by now anyway so the bad driver will be long forgoten.

by buying "better" suspension,stickier tyres,little shims for tracking,bigger brakes etc wont make a crap driver better,it will just mean he is as bad but going slightly quicker while being bad and probably crashing at a higher speed.

to learn how to drive you need to go back to basics and get somebody to teach you how to understand car control.as somebody has said already the best way to learn is in a crap car,with not much power,then build up to a decent spec car.

remember F1 starts at karts.

Stavros

i always say that, like you say, spending mega money making you a bit faster is just a crutch, i doubt any of us can take their cars to ther complete limits and nobody could go faster, not by a long shot.

dovboy

i know i am talking about motorbikes but i think its a good example,my mate who is into bikes and a very fast rider on the road and trackdays(thought about racing but lack of funding put payed to that)was at knockhill for an open pit bike testing day,he was on his own tuned road bike(r1)

the late steve hislop was out on track at the same time on a standard r1,he seen steve behind him so thought he would try and get away,after two or three fast laps with hislop all over him he pulled to the side to let him past.

he was shocked to see hislop had a passenger on the back



my point is if i could take my 500bhp cosworth to its limits i wouldnt be building houses for a living.

like stavros says its the fear of crashing that stops folks taking it near the limit,once you remove that fear you can push a little harder

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Absolute BOLLOCKS . A good driver is GOOD, because he can understand and feel what the car is telling him and can adjust to technique that will get the best out of a car. You can't drive every car the same, or you would crash. If you couldn't read and interpret what the car was doing and adjust accordingly - you would crash. Whether that ability is subconsciously, deliberate or taught, it is still the driver's ability to adapt to each handling nuance that makes a good driver good. Obviously a better car will allow that driver to be push harder and faster, but a good driver cannot make a bad car go fast. He might be able to make a bad car go fastER than a driver not as skilled, but ultimately he will be slower than and equivalent driver in a better car. This is shown to be true in F1 - Kimi Raikenan in a "mediocre" car finished no-where really last year. Put into a better car and he pretty much fucked off and left everyone.

A good driver is good, because he understands how to adjust to get the best times out of the car. You can't just drive the same way, you have to feel what the car is doing and adjust to a style that suits the handling traits of the car. As a completely straight forward example, I could not get into a 2wd car and drive it like my 4x4 car, as it requires a different syle and technique. It would take me (a moderately skilled driver) several laps to adjust to a technique that gets the best from the car (as in the best I could get out of it), a skilled driver could probably have had this information interpreted and analysed within a few corners and be pushing the car harder than me after years of owning it, before the end of the first lap .

You can get in a car and INSTANTLY recognise a good driver, in the same way as you can get in a car and recognise a BAD driver. The way you do this is as described previously. The car will react in a particular way informing the driver that he has reached the limits of something, the GOOD driver will INSTANTLY adjust to that and change the style of driving so that doesn't happen again, or exploit it in some way to go faster. A BAD driver will just ignor what the car has just tried to tell him (through lack of understanding / experience) and won't know how to adjust or understand why he has to adjust and will not improve lap time wise or at worst will spin off and crash.

Drivers aren't magically good (although natural talent is obvious a key plus point) . I cannot see how ANY driver can drive quickly without understanding a car's reactions to different inputs. You HAVE to be able to feel what the car is doing to be able to drive fast.

Micky The Finn

drivers arnt magically good??????????

get in the real world mike,you havnt seen magic before then!!

Stavros

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

The top ones start at a REALLY young age and have had ten years experience before most people even get a driving licence, that's not magic, that's experience .

As a pretty lame example: over-steer - with experience you know how to identify the onset of this and can be ready to apply opposite lock, apply it, steer out of the slide and carry on knowing that next time you need to either go a bit slower into that corner (or if it gained some time, repeat again).

Mr Shit driver wouldn't recognise the feel of this, let alone know what to do when it happens .

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

It always helps if you are driving a car you don't have to pay to be repaired .

dovboy

by sticking with a saff tho i am removing some of the expense,if i crashed my saff it would be replaced with another sapphire.

its fear of the impact that puts your heart in your mouth and freezing, that stops you from driving your way out of a potential crash.

Crowder

As stated i think alot of it is understanding your car! i wouldnt class myself as a good driver far from it. But i'd like to think i know exactly what my cars doing. i've owned a focus rs for 2 years drive it every day and hard. Minor mods to it but these do include choice parts such as better brakes and pads, alot of thought on tyre choice and a slight adjustment of suspension.

I think this is the reason on various trackdays i've been able to pass keep up and impress alot of higher powered cars with the focus. ok it helps the car was more focused towards track and i push it hard (when i have track insurance lol).

But i am not a gud driver well i wouldnt say i was anything special i just know what the cars doing. Chuck me in another car such as something rwd or 4wd i'd properly be shite lol.

Crowds.

RichardPON

Getting in with a PROPER driver who can show you real car control is something else.

I was lucky enough to get a passenger ride out with Mark Higgins in an RS2000 on a gravel track in Wales a long time ago, and it shocked the life out of me.

Micky The Finn

bit more involved than a track day isnt it.

Nash

iTrader: (3)

This is a superb Video of Mark Higgins comentating, from 1994. Shows superb car control and explains what he is doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYUlNXwJ8fY

dovboy

thats from 1994 ,the year the pilot escort won ,,love that clip,knows the road so well that his co-pilot is along for the ride