Ginge !

katie,,,, sorry but it would be a good thing if judges lived in the REAL world

i belive all peope serving law should live on a council estate for 3 months pf the year to see how the other half really live

Katie

I don't accept that really ginge..

Magistrates for instance, you'll be hard pushed to find one who isn't a complete layperson.

So for the offences in question, provided it isn't going to crown court...your point doesn't stand

I think you'd be suprised to learn how many of the judges come from non aristocratic/middle class backgrounds, especially nowadays.

Take the Commons vote on the House of Lords the other night..to have an all elected 2nd chamber...there's precious few hereditory peers left now as it is..and that's the highest appeal court in the country.

Dannn

Katie,

The police are allowed to use reasonable force to arrest you. If they use more than reasonable force when arresting then they have committed a crime. This is what a large part of this discussion is about. I have had this happen to me and it was not a very pleasant experience. In the case of this girl I think the copper used unreasonable force, you and others may have a different opinion.

To be honest I don't actually understand your posts at all. Have you read the the other posts here and grasped their understanding?

Dan

Katie

Reasonable force is a discretionary power. Reasonable force would be objective. It's a question of proportionality. Was the force proportionate to achieve the objective? I'd say yes. Obviously it wouldn't be up to you or I to decide, hence why it's a debate.

I really can't see how anything I've said is particularly hard to understand whether you agree with it or not.

As for the have I read and understood, I really think questioning somebodys literacy is a pretty low stoop when directing an argument on an internet forum. Just for the record though, yes, I do understand statutory duties of public authorities to society at large. Thanks for your concern though, it's appreciated

bud-weis

have you been reading those books again?

DaveZS

Granted that, but you've missed a major thing out! If you resist arrest, they can use what force they deem reasonable for that circumstance.
Not only did she resist arrest, she then went on to assault the copper.

The treatment she received was reasonable force for that circumstance.

Hooligan

Ginge:

We're not talking about lifting weights are we?
When confronted with danger or incase of a fight or struggle people can be MUCH MUCH stronger than they would ussualy be just because certain types of drugs combined with fight/flight response can give people such an adrenalinerush or can numb the painreceptors that they become oblivious to danger, physical damage or what not.

I remember an instance when a 16 year old girl (and she was fucking tiny!) had an epileptic fit and became enraged during/after that it took 4 of us to hold her down to prevent her from injuring herself or others, and it was nigh on impossible!
She still managed to repeatedly break loose and punch and kick us.
I've also seen people taking massive blows to the head and body, time after time again and they just wouldn't stay down...we had to squeeze two artiries, rendering him onconsious, 3 times before he accepted defeat...

the mind can do funny things...

S1rst

I hear what your saying and it is a very good point about for what offence and where would it end etc, although a sepearte issue to the thread. Please dont assume by me saying i think they should be given more power, i dont mean beat them up or punch them in the face by any means.

I think part of the reason why many people dont have much respect for the police or the law, is because they could be seen as being too soft and lenient. A quick scutch round the back of the head doesnt hurt anyone, but shows the criminal/trouble causer whose in control of the situation.

I agree when the camera's are not rolling, theres always going to be things happen that we dont get to know about, but thats life, regardless of what country your in and to different extents.

The moral of the storey is, if you dont want to risk getting involved with it, then keep your nose clean, and if you dont want to risk getting hurt or injured, then accept the officers initial and mostly polite way of arrest, rather than resist.

Ginge !

it cant make you stronger though please understand that !!!

you are as strong as you are ffs, strength IS lifting weights,,,, if you get what i mean but its a measurment of strength

as said drugs dont make people stronger than they actually are,,, the situations your talking about is people who dont used what they got, like when shy people get drunk and loose there inhibitions,,,, thats the mind though not strength

as for a fit,,,,, again thats a different case as that person has no control and all muscles are flexing when usually most people dont use all there muscles

Dannn

In your opinion, not in mine as I have explain in other posts!

S1rst

Ginge, you did actually say that you could lift an extra 25% whilst on morphine. I think i see what your saying though, saying that drugs dont actually make you a 'stronger' person, but i think more pyhsically capable is a better way to describe it, if theres a difference im not actually sure. I see what your saying though, it is more the mind thats stronger i suppose.

Besides, what were you doing in the gym lifting weights with a bad back for anyway? Not the best of idea's really.

Dannn

Even the most law abiding people sometimes get into trouble for what ever reason - shit happens!

Also I like many others I am sure have not resisted arrest and then been assualted!

However even if you stupidly do resist then reasonable force should only be used and their is no excuse to apply excess force of any kind.

S1rst

A very good point, but i suppose its then up to the individual to chose how they deal with that.

Ginge !

i was ment to be stretching to relax the muscles to help ease the pain and thought i would do a test to see what happens when i feel no pain,,,, see its actually came of use in a post on here

id like to say i regret it cause of the pain after,,,,, but i was soo spaced out on morphine i forgot most stuff i done in the gym tbh not to mention fell asleep in the pub afterwards

Hayxr

Sorry but I don't agree!

For instance if i got caught up (by accident) in a fight or was trying to stop a fight, whether being male or female and the coppers come along think I'm part of it and give me a clip round the back of the head and I die what happens then! I've lost my life just because a copper got it wrong! (Which does happen quite often due to no fault of there own)!

And as for your remark a scutch round the back of the head doesn't hurt anyone if fact it can!

I don't claim to be a doctor or anything but it can't do a lot of damage i.e. coma, brain damage, tumour, if not kill someone!

I know most people on here don't really get caught up in the police very often including me but its easily done! and you can also get mistaken identity very easily too! just like my brother did!

As my dear dad told me when i was young! Violence never solves anything!

SassyRS

All depends Ginge.. (time of the month and all that )

Seriously tho, if I was grabbing at one Pc's balls, spitting at another and kicking my legs to resist arrest, then maybe 4 men would find it hard to restrain me?!?

Like you said maybe the police officers in question were just pussies

Miss Fiesta Turbo

The thing i dont get is on the video you cant see the girl struggling at all... and the other 3 or 4 coppers were standing around watching, so i think if she was being a handful, a couple of them would be sitting on her. Why they couldnt sit on her arms and legs i dont know, the punches were totally uncalled for, if the copper was alone and struggling fair enough, but the truth is he wasnt, there were more than 3 of them

SassyRS

I must admit the video footage did make it look harsh..

Problem with this country tho is its not tough enough when it counts.

If she wasn't being a pest she wouldnt have been kicked out the club, and there would have been no need for any of it at all.

Theres many ways of looking at this and tbh no-one is ever gonna have the same opinions thats what makes debates so interesting

S1rst

Indeed there is the case of mistaken identity for example but 99% of the time they do get the chance to come quietly whether guitly or not, and thats the whole point and is actually whats triggered off this incident in the first place.

As for my comment, a scutch on the back of the head , its not a whack round the head with a baton or anything at all, as with the spanish cops its just a slap round the back of the head to obtain authority and more of a mental gesture than an act to cause pain.

If you compare the british cop programmes and the spanish equivelents for example, i think you'd maybe understand my point. British police often have the piss took out of them by the suspects, whereas the spanish suspects seem to have somewhat more respect for them.

Hayxr

pmsl Love it! Get rid of some of that pent up aggression pmsl!

Problem is some people take it a little too far on this site!

Hayxr

S1rst - i can see what you're saying completely but this is England and things just isn't the same nor are the people!

this country is turning into a mini America! Soon I will be claiming the fast food stores for making my arse fat pmsl!

There's no stopping it! my only fret is that they will start "shot at will" or what ever its called back and start shooting innocent people like before and in America!

The way i look at situations like this is to bring it closer to home!

If this was your daughter/ sister/ mother/ niece would you still be encouraging it! Probably not! or you might I do not know! lol

All I'm trying to say is its different when you have been involved or seen situations like this first hand!

S1rst

And for the record, just been reading the local paper about this and it said, the woman cannot remember a thing of what happened and its only after seeing the footage later, that she decided to try and get the officer sacked.

It also goes on to say she was a wearing a full tracksuit with the hood up and initially the police thought it was a bloke.

It could only be the UK that make such a big deal over this. Most other countries wouldnt bat an eyelid at that video.

Im really not sure that if it was a bloke, would it have had the coverage that its had???

Hayxr

Honestly my view would still be the same!

Also why the fuck are her trousers round her ankles when they get her up!

arch

Yet still no one has actually said what they think the officer should have done.

We cannot 'sit' on people to try and restrain him due to something called excited delirium (sp), so, bearing in mind they had to get her into a car, what do you think he should have done, or should I say, how would you have done it?

As for her trousers in my mind it just shows that she must have been kicking her legs about, NO officer would deliberately remove anyones bleeding trousers.

SassyRS

Unless you are in that situation i guess you cant say...

Things get out of hand etc.. you have to cope in whatever way you can at that time.

S1rst

Im not actually encouraging violence at all, im just all in favour of the police doing what they feel is necessary force at the time. fair enough there are laws and rules etc but at the ned of the day they are still human with emotions and reactions, its how they deal with them that makes the difference between a good cop and a bad one.

I have seen situations like this first hand and feel it WAS necessary. None of us can actually say whether this dead arm incident was REALLY necessary as we dont know all the facts.

Good point about if it was my mother, sister or daughter but im pretty confident they wouldnt put themselves in that postion in the first place , and if by any chance they did commit an offence, im confident in saying they wouldnt react like she did and resist.

timrud

Right, I can't be arsed to wade through the whole thread, I've read little bits, that enough for me!

End of the day, the police MUST obide by the same rules as us normal folk.

There are certain mitigating circumstances that would make hitting somebody technically legal. This officer is claiming one of them.

BUT how many people has he done this to before? Probably loads!

Anybody in Sheffield got the Star today? Hes on the front page with some interesting comments.

Its worth a note hes a firearms officer. This in my experience means he has the ego the size of Africa, and certainly thinks hes a cut above the rest of the force as he has a gun

Ginge !

aint you part of the criminal system too mate ?

either way cant belive we give that slapper this much posts

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i can't be bothered to read all 9 pages
it's got way out of hnd and the bint wants compo
why don't you all read the sun

S1rst

Seen it mate yes. Some very interesting comments from the public at the bottom of the pages too.

Something like this is always going to have a 50/50 split, depending on peoples attitudes, morals, upbringings and experiences. People are never going to change their opinions either way, and thats fair enough. None of us know for sure what actually happened and whether is was right or wrong, apart from the officers involved. The woman cant even remember a thing apparently. Is that the truth, or is that a coincidence? Who knows.

timrud

Yes Ginge I am part of the Criminal Justice Syatem, doesn't mean its immune from critisism from me though! I see something that stinks nearly every day TBH

Ginge !

hey wasnt having a dig, just said it to confirm that not everyone whos part of it has a blinkered opinion

didnt mean to offend

nellyscossy

well as mentioned .arent these coppers supposed to be trained to deal with these situations...if that was me outside a club having my balls grabbed or not and i did that to her with three of my pals stood over watching then i would be doin 4 yrs!!!
i know she shouldnt be fucking around and struggling the way she did but i think it was excessive.........
same as that fookin copper that got caught driving at 159 mph on the m54....he got let off,,then guilty after a retrial...now if YOU were found guilty of driving at that speed you would get a ban to say the least.....now because it was a copper and the judge felt sorry that he had attended so many court hearings he let him off with a conditional discharge!!!!...
poor old soul....................when a car hits you at 159mph you die whether a fookin copper is driving or not
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rant over...

dojj

iTrader: (3)

probably the most sensible thing posted in this thread so far

S1rst

Sorry but thats a ridiculous comment mate. You wouldnt have been arresting someone attempting to resist arrest, and being assaulted whilst trying to do your job.

Agreed, the police still have to obey the law, but they obviously have more power over joe public, otherwise what would be the point.

Anyway, who keeps bumping this back up, as i find myself having to comment every time it comes back.

S1rst

Yep, apart from the top part.

nellyscossy

well sorry i spoke!!!!
this is all about one copper who lost his head!!!
there were two others stood over her and between them they couldnt restrain one woman without punching her ..well thats a load of bollox!!!
they are all given pepper spray to use in these situations..i have seen this used on people just for being cheeky!!!!!
my opinion is that this copper lost his head and i think the force he used was over the top whether doing his job or not!!!!

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

FFS This thread still knocking about, its time it died a fucking death


Luciano

timrud

Sorry Ginge, took what you said the wrong way mate

dojj

iTrader: (3)

pepper spray is nothing to write home about

if you can stand a bit of chilli it's like eating a kebab