foreigneRS

this is a car forum, but this is GD. why shouldn't graham post things like this in here?

just because you may not agree, doesn't mean that it is propaganda. how do we know what is truth and what is lies unless we have seen something with our own eyes?

this is a topic meant for discussion, not just for others to try and shut him up by forcing their opinion of the 'facts' on him and the rest of us

what about those people who believe that the holocaust never happened? are they right or wrong? personally, i don't know. i am inclined to believe that it did, but is that only because i have been told so? i wasn't actually there to witness it myself, so i don't take it as 100% the truth.

same with things like the bible. the creation of man and living things by god, or darwin's theory of evolution? i am inclined to believe the latter, but i'm open to debate on the matter as anyone who considers themselves to be intelligent should be.

RichardPON

Nick.

You talk some sense at times, but sometimes you talk some absolute bollocks.

How can you possibly compare the truth of the bible to the truth of the Holocaust is beyond belief.

How can you NOT take the Holocaust, for example, as 100% truth? What do you think happened? That 10 million people just disappeared?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ah, fair enough.

I stand correted then

Chip

iTrader: (3)

PON, the english translation of the bible is the least accurate and most dangerous book ever written IMHO

Nick, you are totally correct, even though he is clearly a deluded twat, he DOES have the right to freedom of speech, even if all he uses it for is to say "im a cock"

RichardPON

Chip - you may have a valid point re: the bible, but I was questioning Nick's holocaust denial.

How can you not know whether it's right or wrong to deny such things? People in charge of legislature know well enough to make it a crime to do so....

And anyway, if we're using Nick's criteria of being open to debate, what purpose does Graham's posting have, considering he is neither open to debate, nor willing to view facts that might run contrary to his beliefs.

I asked Graham earlier why he had stopped distributing Loose Change - a video that he purported as "the truth". Can we get an answer?

foreigneRS

why is that bollocks? based on what you think you know, you may believe it to be bollocks, but that doesn't mean that it is

as i said, based on the evidence that i have, my experience, places i've visited etc, i am inclined to believe (probably to a 99% certainty if i had to quantify it) that the holocaust did happen. i don't know of any absolute concrete fact personally, for example anyone of the 10 million dissappearing, that confirms it 100% though.

but certainly there are people that 100% believe it did as it is written so in history books, been on tv, has laws against denial of it etc, but then there are others that 100% believe that it did not.

just like many people watched people walk on the moon on tv. but did it really happen? i remain sceptical.

as for graham not discussing it and just presenting it as fact, i can't really comment. but it's obviously something that he believes in and has seen enough evidence to convince him. if you are interested in changing his mind, then present evidence to the contrary and have a rational debate instead of just asking him to stop posting drivel. if you're not interested, why pass comment?

i am sceptical about most things in life that i do not have direct experience of. i am happy to live my life like that, and don't need a fixed set of beliefs to rely on.

Graham S1

the BBC's reply... they obviously haven't watched it themselves yet.

(for those here who haven't noticed, this is a new development, from the last couple of days.)


Ooook then. Lost your backups?

There all here. (edit files have since all been pulled)

BBC

http://ia331332.us.archive.org/3/ite.../V08515-04.mpg
http://ia331327.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08515-08.mpg
http://ia311534.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08515-12.mpg
http://ia331319.us.archive.org/0/ite.../V08515-16.mpg
http://ia331308.us.archive.org/0/ite.../V08515-20.mpg
http://ia331332.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08515-24.mpg
http://ia331329.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08515-28.mpg
http://ia311517.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08515-32.mpg
http://ia331340.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08591-04.mpg
http://ia301330.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08591-08.mpg
http://ia331327.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08591-12.mpg
http://ia311517.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08591-16.mpg
http://ia331317.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08591-20.mpg
http://ia331338.us.archive.org/3/ite.../V08591-24.mpg
http://ia311503.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08591-28.mpg
http://ia311503.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08591-32.mpg
http://ia331304.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08590-04.mpg
http://ia331339.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08590-08.mpg
http://ia311535.us.archive.org/1/ite.../V08590-12.mpg
http://ia331333.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08590-16.mpg
http://ia331329.us.archive.org/3/ite.../V08590-20.mpg
http://ia331316.us.archive.org/2/ite.../V08590-24.mpg

foreigneRS

i'm not interested one way or the other really, but that is bloody funny.

RichardPON

I'm posting drivel? I'm a historian of five years, and have read a large percentage of the literature written about the holocaust. I did my dissertation on the specific initiation policies, and I've been to Auschwitz and seen it for myself. For you to say you can't be 100% certain it happened, and saying "ooh, maybe 99%" for the sake of impropriety is almost insulting. What exactly is it you don't believe?

Of course you're welcome to be sceptical, but might I suggest conceeding to those with more experience and better judgement. Otherwise, why pass comment?

As for Graham's "argument", I have repeatedly asked why he has stopped distributing a DVD that he claimed contained "the truth". Considerring he has not answered, is it too presumptious to assume that it is because the whole thing was a fabrication from start to finish?

Franco

iTrader: (2)

Rich, have you watched loose change?

Quite good actually!

RichardPON

Yes, from start to finish you wind up merhant!

Mark_w

And you cannot see that its a inside job???

regards mark

RichardPON

You actually believe Loose Change is accurate evidencce of it being an inside job? That film is laughable in its innacuracies. I don't think there is a single source that is credible in that poor excuse for a film.

Have you read this:

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

Franco

iTrader: (2)

But your a bright lad Rich, some of it does seem odd

I mean the plane that crashed & left no remains?..................... How many airplane crashes you seen in a lifetime with no debris?

Way i see it, Grahams not doing any harm being honest........... People make they're own conclusions.

Like all the Da vinci code stuff, dead sea scrolls etc i find it really interesting!

RichardPON

No remains and no debris? Where was this?

To be honest, very little of it seems odd when you put it in context. What the CTists do is remove it from context to give it false validity.

Mate, if you read any of my previous posts no this stuff, I'm all up for conspiracy theories, but just use a little common sense. There are even people saying that it was a missile that hit the towers for god's sake!

However, I just can't be doing with people presenting falsified evidence and claiming it's the truth. None of it so far stands up to scrutiny.

Franco

iTrader: (2)

Fair enough fella. As i say i'd love for the other side to be put into some form of DVD/film as i'm fucked if i reading through that lot posted!

Now back to that cock you've been smoking!

Dannn

It is very interesting but complete bollocks!!

Me and my good lady watched a few of the 911 CT films a few years back and for a couple of week we were both sucked in. These films are actually very clever in the way there are presented and I think its quite understandable why people beleive it.

However when you actually stand back and look into more you then realise that there in no way on earth the US goverment directly had anything to do with it. Now this is plausable:

1. US Government new attack was going happen but did nothing to stop it (I beleive this to a certain extent).

2. US Government indirectly trained some of the terrorists (I don't really beleive this).

3. One plane was shot down by US Government - I actually do beleive this and don't see any problem with it. The plane was going to be crashed into something so it needed taking out, people on board were unfortunaly going to die anyway. Any Government would find it hard explaining to the masses. Saying it crashed due to heroric passenger sounds much better!

Dan

ps - Graham have a reality check mate - stand back and think about how difficult it would be for the US Government to directly do this. The shear number of people involved and to be kept quiet. It would actually be easier to hire some terrorists to actually preform the act exactly how it happened!!LOL

Franco

iTrader: (2)

Bilderberg did it!

Yes we did the same (actually off Graham!) but i wouldnt put much past the govenments in place worldwide at the moment - all bent cunts!

Stavros

The team from the popular Channel 4 afternoon quiz show Countdown were vital to the US Goverment plot to blow up the WTC buildings, and in early June 2005 they was planning to go public with the info, so the CIA, under orders from the real leader of the USA, an alien from another universe, killed Richard Whitely to scare the others into keeping quiet.

Its true I tell you.

Thats why they killed 2pac too, in 1996

foreigneRS

where have i said you're posting drivel rich? i haven't, and i don't think that you are.

good for you. you've obviously researched the whole subject more than me, and that is obviously why you are more convinced than me that it absolutely and undeniably did happen. that's still just your opinion based on your research, experience etc though.

i happen to agree with you to a point that it is not worth arguing over, as there is very little doubt in my mind. there is no specific thing that i don't believe, it's just not part of my personal history or experience that i can completely believe in in exactly the same way that i cannot believe in the whole lunar landing thing.

maybe i would say i'm 99.9% sure that it happened if that would make you feel less insulted although why you should feel insulted if someone else does not completely follow your beliefs is something i don't understand.

if you were a child growing up in germany 60 years ago, would you believe then that the holocaust happened? probably not, as you were repeatedly taught otherwise. to those people, it was basically a 'fact' that we know now to be a fabrication

my point is not really about the holocaust anyway, that would be a whole different topic for debate if necessary (which i don't think it is). my point is just that some people believe one thing, some people will believe another. it all depends upon what information they have received on a subject, what their personality is etc. you should know this, and should not be questioning another person's beliefs if you can't handle yours being questioned.

like you said to me

maybe graham is the person with more experience and better judgement over you on the 911 subject? then again, maybe not. i don't care, but i will sure as hell make up my own mind on any subject and not have anyone tell me what i should and should not believe

RichardPON

Nick.

To some extent I agree with you, but certain issues aren't up for discussion.

Using the holocaust as an example, it's not a case of what you believe happened. So certain is the fact, and so obvious is the slanderous nature of those who deny, that is illegal to do so.

Seems far more sensible to draw a conclusion based on facts. My angle with this whole discussion is that what limited information we are privvy to in this 911 discussion should not be twisted to fit the story.

Graham S1

And I explained in the last post a week or so ago.

Any comment on this particular subject? Were the BBC mis fed information? Does Mystic Meg work for them? How did they predict the future so well?

And while were at it, you bring up in the other thread about the "thousand" of people who had to have to have helped pull off 911. What about the sick fucks who signed up for the job of working in Concentration Camps?

RichardPON

Where? I didn't see any explanation.

Graham S1

It's there. Not this post, the last one.

foreigneRS

Rich

Perhaps it wasn't the best example, as the certainty is so high. Nevertheless, there are people out there that do deny it happened. We can't all be right.

Using the word certainty implies that there is an element of uncertainty. If one is significantly higher than the other, then experience tells you to go with the highest. But as long as there is uncertainty, there is a risk that you made the wrong choice.

IMO, everything should be up for discussion. There should be nothing that is not, otherwise where do you stop?

Back to the original post - there's an appropriate comedy line for this situation (although I can't remember who used to use it. possibly vic reeves )

Coincidence or Magic? You decide!

RichardPON

What about those people working in camps? Surely you of all people must appreciate the idea of propaganda?

You're peddling enough of it yourself.

Stavros

I dont believe Butlins or the Glamourous Granny competitions ever existed.

Its all propoganda.

Westy

iTrader: (1)

hi Graham..

thanks for the loose change cd..

Ive watched it, and to be fair, having seen it, how can it not be true.. definately an inside job

RobL

for what my opinions worth i reckon theres a good chance the government knew the attacks were gonna take place, let it happen and made sure the towers came down

foreigneRS

eh? is that also directed at me Rich? if so, i don't understand what you're getting at there?

of course i appreciate the idea of propaganda - and usually it presents two different stories of actual events. one, the other, or maybe neither are completely true. who knows?

SimonT

I love my conspiricy theorys but I'm now 100% convinved 9/11 was simply caused by a bunch of pissed off Muslims. Fact.

All "evidence" that says otherwise is pretty shit. AFter watching loose change a good few times I can rubbish everything they try to say with fact.

Graham S1

forgot to post this too, for whoever posted up the screwloosechange link.

http://screwloosechangedebunked.wordpress.com/

Graham S1

oh, and the "mis quoted" coroner from last Sundays program.




http://www.911blogger.com/node/6447
http://shoestring911.blogspot.com/20...ce-miller.html

The Many Misquotes of Wallace Miller

Wallace Miller is the coroner of Somerset County, Pennsylvania. He was among the first people to arrive at the alleged Flight 93 crash site on the morning of 9/11. He later recounted to the Washington Post what he'd seen when he first got there: "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service." (Peter Perl, "Hallowed Ground," Washington Post, 5/12/2002)

Since there were 44 people on board Flight 93, a crash site with "no bodies" makes no sense. Where were the victims? Something appears to have been seriously wrong.

Yet Miller now seems to dispute his earlier claim. In the recent BBC documentary 9/11: The Conspiracy Files, he explained: "I said that I stopped being a coroner after about 20 minutes because it was perfectly clear what the cause and manner of death was gonna be. It was a plane crash but yet it was a homicide because the terrorists hijacked the plane and killed the people, and the terrorists committed suicide. So from that point, yes it was a misquote, because the point that I was trying to make was, after that it more or less became a large funeral service." The BBC documentary's producer Guy Smith endorsed this claim, telling Loose Change creator Dylan Avery that Miller meant his earlier statement only as "a simile. … It looked as if that had happened. … But he didn't mean that literally." (9/11: The Conspiracy Files, BBC 2, 2/18/2007)

Was the Washington Post mistaken? Did they "misquote" Wallace Miller? Other reports suggest differently. In the 12 months following 9/11, Miller in fact described the surprising lack of human remains at the Flight 93 crash site, repeatedly and unequivocally:

* He told author David McCall: "I got to the actual crash site and could not believe what I saw. … Usually you see much debris, wreckage, and much noise and commotion. This crash was different. There was no wreckage, no bodies, and no noise. … It appeared as though there were no passengers or crew on this plane." (David McCall, From Tragedy to Triumph, 2002, pp. 86-87)

* He told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: "It was as if the plane had stopped and let the passengers off before it crashed." (Tom Gibb, "Newsmaker: Coroner's quiet unflappability helps him take charge of Somerset tragedy," Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 10/15/2001)

* He told CNN: "It was a really a very unusual site. You almost would've thought the passengers had been dropped off somewhere. … Even by the standard model of an airplane crash, there was very little, even by those standards." (CNN, 3/11/2002)

* Author Jere Longman wrote: "Wallace Miller, the Somerset County coroner, arrived and walked around the [crash] site with [assistant volunteer fire chief Rick] King. … They walked around for an hour and found almost no human remains. 'If you didn't know, you would have thought no one was on the plane,' Miller said. 'You would have thought they dropped them off somewhere.'" (Jere Longman, Among the Heroes, 2002, p. 217)

* Recalling the crash scene, Miller told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: "This is the most eerie thing. I have not, to this day, seen a single drop of blood. Not a drop." (Robb Frederick, "The day that changed America," Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 9/11/2002)

* Australian newspaper The Age reported: "Miller was familiar with scenes of sudden and violent death, although none quite like this. Walking in his gumboots, the only recognisable body part he saw was a piece of spinal cord, with five vertebrae attached. 'I've seen a lot of highway fatalities where there's fragmentation,' Miller said. 'The interesting thing about this particular case is that I haven't, to this day, 11 months later, seen any single drop of blood. Not a drop. The only thing I can deduce is that the crash was over in half a second. There was a fireball 15-20 metres high, so all of that material just got vaporised.'" ("On Hallowed Ground," The Age, 9/9/2002)

It would be ridiculous to claim that these accounts were all 'misquotes.' Furthermore, several other witnesses also made the same observation, and later said they saw virtually no human remains at the Flight 93 crash site:

* According to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, when former firefighter Dave Fox arrived at the scene, "He saw a wiring harness, and a piston. None of the other pieces was bigger than a TV remote. He saw three chunks of torn human tissue. He swallowed hard. 'You knew there were people there, but you couldn't see them,' he says." (Robb Frederick, "The day that changed America," Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 9/11/2002)

* Local FBI agent Wells Morrison told author Glenn Kashurba what he saw when he arrived at the crash site: "We arrived in the immediate area and walked up to the crater and the burning woods. My first thought was, 'Where is the plane?' Because most of what I saw was this honeycomb looking stuff, which I believe is insulation or something like that. I was not seeing anything that was distinguishable either as human remains or aircraft debris." (Glenn Kashurba, Courage After the Crash, 2002, p. 110)

* After hearing a plane was down nearby, Jeff Phillips, who worked at Stoystown Auto Wreckers, "left work to locate the crash site," along with a colleague. "But when we arrived," he says, "Almost nothing was recognizable. The only thing we saw that was even remotely human was half a shoe that was probably ten feet from the impact area." (David McCall, From Tragedy to Triumph, 2002, pp. 29-30)

* Jon Meyer, a reporter with WJAC-TV, says: "We were so early that they hadn't had a chance to set up a barrier for the press. … I was able to get right up to the edge of the crater. … All I saw was a crater filled with small, charred plane parts. … There were no suitcases, no recognizable plane parts, no body parts."(Newseum, Running Toward Danger, 2002, p. 148)

* Faye Hahn, an EMT, responded to the first reports of the crash. She says: "Several trees were burned badly and there were papers everywhere. We searched. … I was told that there were 224 passengers, but later found out that there were actually forty. I was stunned. There was nothing there." (David McCall, From Tragedy to Triumph, 2002, pp. 31-32)

Despite this absence of human remains at the Flight 93 crash scene, the Washington Post reported: "[T]he 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. … Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks [after 9/11] were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total." (Peter Perl, "Hallowed Ground," Washington Post, 5/12/2002)

By December 19, 2001, "the remains of the 40 passengers and crew, and, by process of elimination, the four hijackers" had all been identified. (Steve Levin, "Flight 93 victims' effects to go back to families," Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/30/2001)

andyhardy

I can't believe this - you CTs fucked it up again!

WHERE'S THE PROOF - WHERE'S THE FUCKING TIME STAMP ON THE VIDEO!?

You're definitely alot worse than Mulder!

Or perhaps the CIA blurred it out making it impossible to use as evidence?

Puhhhleease!

Dannn

Graham,

Do you ever consider that its possible for a genuine mistake to happen ?

Do you ever think there is a small chance that after being sucked in by those dodgy films and internet sites that you could be a little paranoid?

Would there be enough evidence for you that the attacks were genuine ?

Cheers,

Dan

thebigyin

keep it up chief

st3v3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1-D...elated&search=

this ones interesting too

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Seconded. He can post what he likes on this forum, if youve nothing constructive to say, keep off his topic.

danneth

i missed the program about this from the other day, is there anywhere i can watch it on net?

foreigneRS

bttt for RichardPON