TrevCannon

cosjapeater = Pix or STFU! n00b!

Jim Galbally

2grand saph?

350+bhp E46?

you sure

EIL132

Steady Jim, your car has only has 285 bhp, even if it's tuned, it's a lesser M and will not keep up with a standard RS Turbo let alone Cosworth

Jim Galbally

sorry, i forgot you could pick up 400hp sierras for 2k now

Ben M

iTrader: (37)

any need for the chirp trevcannon? cant help it u bmw boys spend an absolute fortune on your cars

TrevCannon

#1, I meant of your hard on...

#2, I dont own one, i use one my mam & step da has

So why 2k????????

Ben M

iTrader: (37)

no hard on jus stating a fact that they are alot of money for no performance or very little in comparison with the price tag, 2k because some relays needed cleanin for it to pass mot

badboy rs

come on mate, you ve got to admit that bmws are more reliable than fords , but i have to say bmws are not as much fun as rs turbos and cossies are.
i used to have a 220 brake s2 about year ago,i drove my mates 3ltr m3 and it felt boring comparin to my car but amount of headache my s2 gave me

thats why i sold the s2, got myself a reliable 328i till i finish uni which i can rag allday long with no problems.

but i'm gonna get back into a ford scene as soon as i get a proper job and income and hopefully do a cosworth conversion to a s2

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

i do agree, BMW's are reliable, but if your not spending major bucks, you get very lil performance, at first the 2002 m3 smg was fun to drive, however easily to get bord with, i love my cossie, not running big power but gives a good fight against cars with major price tags

DaveEscos

Bet my M3 does a higher top speed than YOUR Saph Phil !


oh and what bodgeness is going on with your turbo water pipe!

Stavros

Off topic, but thats gotta be the WORST positioning of that cone filter ever.

Sitting almost touching the wastegate, which is the hottest part of the car.

Must do wonders for ruining the charge temps and losing power.

Filters a bit small too for the power potential.

Bullett

iTrader: (2)

decent badge?you own an audi as well then?!
bm's are nice cars but tbh i do find them boring,but yeah they are reliable and built very well. given the choice out of bm's i'd take the e39 m5 all day long!

alanfordtw-15

bmws aint bloody reliable! my e30 325 has broke my heart since the day i got it, for the amount ive put into keeping it going for nine months i could have bought a nice saff cossie and no i dont drive it hard all the time cos i'm afraid it'll break, and in comparison my saff (which is a year newer ) was driven hard all the time and never skipped a beat only for back tyres an a spark lead if i remember right
wait till all your lovely e46 and m's are 14 years old like a saff and how reliable theyll be

JjCoDeX75

Good lad! Couldnt agree more

On a separate note, I have a cossie and an M5, and I love the cossie very very much, but I do love it when people make posts like this!

Maybe it is just my YB that needs head gaskets and overhauls as often as the BMW needs oil changes!

JJ

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

my unce has a 2006 m5, but he hates it, he says its fun to drive but mpg is very low

Jim Galbally

what#s mpg?

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

lol are you joking or not?

It's Czech Mate

PMSL at everyone comparing a standard bmw engine to a tuned 2.0 yb making say 200bhp per litre and then claiming BMW's are more reliable

When BMW offer an engine as stressed as a tuned YB making similar bhp per litre then you can make a judgement

Granted build quality appears good on beemers but the reliability issue isnt a fair comparison.

Do many 15 year old BMWs hold their value like an Escos? Are 15 yo performance BMW's still giving out 400 bhp with more reliability than a nicely prepped Yb?

Anonymous

Dave of course you got a higher top speed pity it takes you forever to get there compared to mine ..and my turbo water pipe does the job thanks

JjCoDeX75

Before I get into this, I should point out that I have a Cosworth and have had one for 10 years, and am a fan. BUT

Not quite sure what your point is here.... This is how I interpret the above

1. Cosworth engine in standard form is waaay less powerful than a BMW performance engine - agreed

2. Escort cosworth is worth loads of money - have you seen the price of an E30 M3 EVO these days? This is the closest equiv for rarety and age. They dont need 400bhp, cos they go round bends!

3. 200bhp per litre is an achievement from a Cosworth YB - Agreed, but at what price on driveability! Also, you are comparing Apples with Oranges. You are comparing a N/A car with a Turbo Car. I have seen E39 M5's with well over 700bhp with a twin supercharger, that retain their reliability and driveability (admittedly at stupid costs). You can add NOS to get even more to any car! It is not a comparable

4. When BMW offer an engine as stressed as a YB. Not sure why you would want this exactly? What is your point?

To add - The YB in standard form these days is irrelevant. This is why we compare the tuned one, as in standard form it is not at all noteworthy any more! Nobody here (least of all me) is saying that the YB is not an almighty achievement, but to pretend that it is a great overall solution, and reliable is hilarious! What planet are you on? The same planet where Subarus rule the world methinks!!!!

In a controlled test, if you put 20 BMWs against 20 Cosworths of similar power, and placed them on an Autobahn and drove them at full speed until they broke, what do you think the ratio of failure would be. Be honest with yourself!!!!

I wont bother mentioning bends, I have tried to keep up with an M3 round the Nurburgring, and you have to spend an awful lot of money and effort to make a cossie even think about briefly keeping up with a standard road car in road tyres round the twisties!

In a nutshell, I am trying to say that there are better and more accurate ways of making a YB sound good than simply talking utter bollocks!

Rant over!

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I dont think it is actually possible to make a Cosworth with standard equipment beam and front roll bars and TCA handle as well as a BMW. Period. No matter what you spend on it.

It's Czech Mate

2) E30 M3 is slower than a fiesta ST on track - FACT
3) I'm not comparing, i'm pointing out that other people comapring tuned YB reliability to a standard BMW is stupid
4) I'm saying that you can only compare engine reliability of a YB and a BMW if the engines are in the same state of tune ie xbhp per litre

Whats so fucking hard to understand about that

Cossies are very reliablie if prepped properly and not by an idiot on a budget

How many miles did Stu do in his Saph?

Cossies are unreliable because people spunk all their cash on an engine and expect old standard transmission and wiring looms

I think if you put 10 15 yo cossies against 10 15 yo bmws all pushing 200bhp per litre with similarly specced transmission then the failure rates would be the same

My point is that wankers on here are comparing a 15 yo cossie thats probably not that well prepared and highly stressed against relatively BMWs in a much lower state of tune and then claiming about reliability

So i'm not talking bollocks at all mate, what i'm saying is that whoever compares the two is a fool because they arent remotely comparable.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Nooooooooooooooooo


Sounds like Stu's on the turn

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I have never worn blinkers Simon, as you know, i work on more Audi, Mitsi, VW and BMW than i do Ford, and the ONLY thing ive ever loved about the Cosworth Fords is the power per ŁŁŁ ratio. Other than its outright available power, its chassis and handling compared to almost ANY other car is, well, garbage, to be honest.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Also, reliability is quite easy to achieve up to 400BHP on teh YB, but sadly its not free, you need to address all teh areas of high failure rate such as bushes, brakes, fuel supplya nd some electrics. ALL due to age of vehicle.

I have had a Cosworth as my ONLY daily driver for 15years+ and NEVER broken down apart from a bloody wiring short i had behind a dash at TOTB 19 and a water pump gasket on the A1 years ago.

It's Czech Mate

Thank you!

At last someone who can see what I was trying to say - I'm aware of the shortfalls of cossies but it really bugs me when folks say that fords, old ones in particular are unrelaible. If they're maintained to a good standard then they simply arent any worse than anything else IME

Anonymous

Atleast Petrucci is F O R D

Now lets have a PF BMW section so you can all suck cock in there together

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

JjCoDeX75

Sorry mate, I'm not having a pop at you specifically (although I did ) You were just the poor sod whose post was at the bottom of the list.

- but to be fair. I would suggest that the problem of comparison remains with the poster - If Bosch posts something like this, people will react! BMW guys are just defending their position. What was expected!

I for one pride Passionford as being one of the most comprehensive forums anywhere!!! If you remove all of the people that do not just state Fords are great (like a broken record) then the forum suffers as you lose the strength in depth! I would seriously miss that! As EIL has stated, the BMW equiv are awful, as there are no characters, and very very few members! If all the other car owners left Passionford, you would miss them, I promise!

One little dig back - with reference to the ST v Evo M3 - E46 M3 CSL is quicker round a track than most Cosworths irrespective of power! FACT!! I dont own one, I just dont delude myself!! the point is, it is irrelevant!

I love my cossie for its ability to keep up with exotic metal.

However, I do 30k a year for my job. There is no way I would entertain using it for that becuase you and I both know it would not tolerate it (it was the reason it became the 'second car' about eight years ago).

Stu may well have run his as a daily runner, but I am guessing that it wasnt doing anything like that kind of mileage (Stu apologies if I am wrong).

I am a huge huge cosworth fan (ask any of my very very bored mates), but these sort of threads are exactly why other car owners think we are a bunch of idiots! I just wish cossie owners could be a little more rational about their equipment.

All of the above is as always IMHO

JJ

It's Czech Mate

Wasnt a dig mate, was just pointing out because you said e30 m3 could go round corners well, yet a heavier less powerful fwd hatch can beat one so it cant be all that great, i wasnt saying ford this or ford that, just pointing out the e30 m3 is generaly viewed with rose tinted specs......like most cossies

Andreas

[blinkers on]
....but nothing worth photographing.
[blinkers off]

_DAN_

This is a Ford engine.






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xr2i-carl

e46 m3 is roughly 340bhp isnt it???

standard e46 m3 will quarter in mid to low 13's i have never seen a standard rs turbo do that, so dont see how the comment came about that a standard rs turbo will stay with an m3

absolutely not

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I averaged 14 - 18K PA for teh record. Every year for me included at least one driving holiday. Last year was scotland and the nurburgirng.

30K may well have had a serious impact on the reliability of the car. LOL

JjCoDeX75

That's still some mileage per year Stu! The problem is that as the mileage creeps up, all the 'Fordy' type problems creep up in a big way (clutch cable failures etc etc). I used to get bloody good use out of my AA Membership mind! LOL

silverfox999

My six pot lump came from the Nikasil era, currently has 193k on the clock and does 40k a year for work. She has no issues with the vanos or bores.

Dont think *i* would trust a 10yr old ford runner to do the same (not saying one couldnt) just on balance i would say that stats would say otherwise.

Just my (baised) opinion....

As an aside, if Bosch-man wishes to start a pf-bmw c*ck sucking forum for all the bm owners, perhaps a ferrari owning one can be set up at the same time as well - all for him.

EIL132

Had an A3 quattro, you want to talk about boring? Build quality was no where near the BM either. Agree about the E39, awesome car, but fuel bills to match

Mike1

That's an interesting point Stu - I think if you compare the Sierra/Sapphire when it came out to the BMW's of the same period i.e the E30s there is not too much between them. Trouble is then you are comparing the Ford to a BMW chassis designed years before so it is not a fair comparison
If you compare the Sierra/Sapphire chassis to the later E36/E46 cars, yes, I think the BMs have got big advantages with their set-up - the multi-link rear suspension etc, more adjustability etc built in.
Then people will say, but an E30 M3 was much better than a Sierra/Sapphire etc look at the Touring Cars etc etc - that's also interesting though............
.......if you go back to the mags of the time and compare what the road testers say when both road cars were tested back to back , standard and brand new, it's surprising how many times the Ford got the nod over the BM.
Autocar put the Sapphire, M3 and Merc 190 2.3 up against each other - got 3 testers opinions and they each chose a different car. Fast Lane reckoned the Sapphire was the most satisfying driver's car out of the three when they tested a Sapphire, E30 M3 and Lancia Thema 8.32. Car mag's Gavin Green reckoned the Sapphire was the faster car on road/track than an E30 M3 but more likely to bite you in extremis. "What Car" ( back in the days when they used to properly test cars and not just count cupholders ) had to toss a coin to decide which was best out the 2wd Sapphire and E30 M3 on handling - they gave the nod to the BM for it's sharper steering feel although they said "for poise and handling accuracy the Cosworth is easily the match for the M3" . They chose the Ford overall though. These were both 200bhp rwd saloons of a similar weight although the Ford held a torque advantage. If it had been a much worse handler would it have run the BMs so close?
I think you can see what I'm trying to say though - along the way the Ford has "slipped" and is not generally rated by car enthusiasts as anywhere near an E30 M3 these days. Is that because the E30 M3s have lasted/been maintained better/better "image"? Or were all those road testers seduced by the lure of a possible long-term test car and the "rush" of a turbo car and the Ford really wasn't as good?

I'm not anti-BM either - I've had a drive of an E30 M3, i've got an E36 ( and had a few other BMs) but I still enjoy my Ford as well!

Rick

Autocar recently had a little section on the 3dr cossie. They commented on how tight the chassis felt even today.

I think a BIG problem is the aftermarktet suspension setups are largely garbage. Geometry is critical. How many people get a proper four wheel alignment check? When they were new, all this was right.

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Well bugger me, what a great reply!

I think the thing with the E30 M3 is that it has aged well both in looks and heritage (like an RS500 has for example) unlike the Saph cos. The other thing with the E30 is that being N/A it is harder and more expensive to get much more power from. This would mean that a) Fewer owners would tune the engines to more double the original output as with the Cossie, hence the reliability thing and b) With less to spend on engines and rebuilding engines, people would pay more attention to the chassis and suspension, unlike the Saph where people spend so much time on the engine and so little time on everything else.

The other thing with the M3 is that BMW have continued releasing new and excellent versions, which, like the Evo, keeps the older models thought of more highly.

My dads last BMW (02 reg 5 series) had no end of trouble and he owned it from new! I feel that my A6 is built to a comparible level although the BMW may just tip it on build quality.