Monitors - SECS v PECTEL v COLLINS
18-12-2006, 10:08 AM
#121
Ok, From teh top.
The P8 only outputs flash codes in its FORD Format. This is NOT an ecu limitation, its a Ford software limitation as i expect thats all they paid for.
The Pectel and Collins monitors only conform to the original Pectel data output and as such will only operate with a suitable Pectel enabled Chip. Although its worth noting that the Collins monitor does NOT datalog.
None of our early closed loop P8 software has this datastream within it, and it will only output the standard Marelli flash code protocol up to and including software sold in September 06. From October 06 onwards we have a new protocal. (See later)
The IAW monitor also reads teh original Pectel protocol but will also read the far more comprehensive RP labs datastream if you have software that is enabled with that such as our latest closed loop software for teh P8.
Finally,
Yes, the P8 needs a serial mod doing to teh board but its worth noting that the mod we personally do is NOT just a cut track, so maybe there is an easier one than we do. I would be very interested to see the mod some of you have instructions for if possible?
The P8 only outputs flash codes in its FORD Format. This is NOT an ecu limitation, its a Ford software limitation as i expect thats all they paid for.
The Pectel and Collins monitors only conform to the original Pectel data output and as such will only operate with a suitable Pectel enabled Chip. Although its worth noting that the Collins monitor does NOT datalog.
None of our early closed loop P8 software has this datastream within it, and it will only output the standard Marelli flash code protocol up to and including software sold in September 06. From October 06 onwards we have a new protocal. (See later)
The IAW monitor also reads teh original Pectel protocol but will also read the far more comprehensive RP labs datastream if you have software that is enabled with that such as our latest closed loop software for teh P8.
Finally,
Yes, the P8 needs a serial mod doing to teh board but its worth noting that the mod we personally do is NOT just a cut track, so maybe there is an easier one than we do. I would be very interested to see the mod some of you have instructions for if possible?
18-12-2006, 10:09 AM
#122
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
not easy. rplabs are quite serious about trying to protect their software from being copied. when you get the software, a small program needs to be run that takes a digital fingerprint of your computer and emails a small text file of the details to rplabs. from that information, a key code is generated that you input when installing the software. to run it on another computer would mean having to do that process again, which looks like you could have copied it and are just getting the code for the copy.
18-12-2006, 10:29 AM
#123
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
thanks for the update stu 
the ecu mod i now have details of, is a couple of cut tracks and a couple of links - i have a pic from paul, but not at work
can the software be transfered from one machine to another though... by installing it on several, but only having 1 working copy with the code in that the 'fingerprint' program generates via the master fingerprint program at rplabs?
the ecu mod i now have details of, is a couple of cut tracks and a couple of links - i have a pic from paul, but not at work
can the software be transfered from one machine to another though... by installing it on several, but only having 1 working copy with the code in that the 'fingerprint' program generates via the master fingerprint program at rplabs?
18-12-2006, 10:34 AM
#124
Originally Posted by Dave Henshall
can the software be transfered from one machine to another though... by installing it on several, but only having 1 working copy with the code in that the 'fingerprint' program generates via the master fingerprint program at rplabs?
The program itself is modified to suit only that footprint. Its not just a rolling code generator.
18-12-2006, 11:01 AM
#125
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
i get ya,
we have some PLC programming software that you can install on as many machines as you want - it works apart from the cruicial bit - translating the program into downloadable binary files. to enable this every time it is installed, the program itself generates a install code that is then authenticated by the manufacturer; their website then lets you paste the code in and their server gives you an unlock code back. it only lets you do this once, so if you wanted to move it onto anohter pc, you have to go the program and select move this then stops the program working) and releases another code that you have to authenticate on their server, so their server keeps the active record of which codes are on which machines - you couldnt even use the same code if you formatted the hard disc on the same machine and reinstalled it as they are time sensitive.
there is no way of having more than 1 'working' copy at any one time - obviosly the codeing must be included inthe software aswell as on the server, but as an idea of how hard it woulbe be to break by brute force methods (bearing in mind the codes roll on with time) the code is 70 characters long and is completely alphanumeric - so every single digit can be any 1 of 36 values, thats some code
but as im waffling cos its 5% monday here at work i suppose ill just have to find a laptop that it can be permanantly installed on.
i take it if you buy a new laptop, you can transfer the licence to that by uninstalling the whole program...?
we have some PLC programming software that you can install on as many machines as you want - it works apart from the cruicial bit - translating the program into downloadable binary files. to enable this every time it is installed, the program itself generates a install code that is then authenticated by the manufacturer; their website then lets you paste the code in and their server gives you an unlock code back. it only lets you do this once, so if you wanted to move it onto anohter pc, you have to go the program and select move this then stops the program working) and releases another code that you have to authenticate on their server, so their server keeps the active record of which codes are on which machines - you couldnt even use the same code if you formatted the hard disc on the same machine and reinstalled it as they are time sensitive.
there is no way of having more than 1 'working' copy at any one time - obviosly the codeing must be included inthe software aswell as on the server, but as an idea of how hard it woulbe be to break by brute force methods (bearing in mind the codes roll on with time) the code is 70 characters long and is completely alphanumeric - so every single digit can be any 1 of 36 values, thats some code
but as im waffling cos its 5% monday here at work
i suppose ill just have to find a laptop that it can be permanantly installed on.i take it if you buy a new laptop, you can transfer the licence to that by uninstalling the whole program...?
18-12-2006, 01:48 PM
#128
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by Dave Henshall
i get ya,
we have some PLC programming software that you can install on as many machines as you want - it works apart from the cruicial bit - translating the program into downloadable binary files. to enable this every time it is installed, the program itself generates a install code that is then authenticated by the manufacturer; their website then lets you paste the code in and their server gives you an unlock code back. it only lets you do this once, so if you wanted to move it onto anohter pc, you have to go the program and select move this then stops the program working) and releases another code that you have to authenticate on their server, so their server keeps the active record of which codes are on which machines - you couldnt even use the same code if you formatted the hard disc on the same machine and reinstalled it as they are time sensitive.
there is no way of having more than 1 'working' copy at any one time - obviosly the codeing must be included inthe software aswell as on the server, but as an idea of how hard it woulbe be to break by brute force methods (bearing in mind the codes roll on with time) the code is 70 characters long and is completely alphanumeric - so every single digit can be any 1 of 36 values, thats some code
but as im waffling cos its 5% monday here at work i suppose ill just have to find a laptop that it can be permanantly installed on.
i take it if you buy a new laptop, you can transfer the licence to that by uninstalling the whole program...?
we have some PLC programming software that you can install on as many machines as you want - it works apart from the cruicial bit - translating the program into downloadable binary files. to enable this every time it is installed, the program itself generates a install code that is then authenticated by the manufacturer; their website then lets you paste the code in and their server gives you an unlock code back. it only lets you do this once, so if you wanted to move it onto anohter pc, you have to go the program and select move this then stops the program working) and releases another code that you have to authenticate on their server, so their server keeps the active record of which codes are on which machines - you couldnt even use the same code if you formatted the hard disc on the same machine and reinstalled it as they are time sensitive.
there is no way of having more than 1 'working' copy at any one time - obviosly the codeing must be included inthe software aswell as on the server, but as an idea of how hard it woulbe be to break by brute force methods (bearing in mind the codes roll on with time) the code is 70 characters long and is completely alphanumeric - so every single digit can be any 1 of 36 values, thats some code
but as im waffling cos its 5% monday here at work
i suppose ill just have to find a laptop that it can be permanantly installed on.i take it if you buy a new laptop, you can transfer the licence to that by uninstalling the whole program...?
18-12-2006, 01:56 PM
#129
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
best of it is with the PLC software - what are you going to do when you have a worknig copy of the software...? order some hardware from them to make it work as it only works with their own hardware 
18-12-2006, 02:29 PM
#130
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Allen Bradley stuff is shite
In my main work I use many types of PLC equipment and software.
How about this.....
If you use a Redlion G3 HMI you can write your own protocol if
you know C code programming and attach it to any car providing
you have the protocol and interface details.
http://www.redlion.net/g3features/
Choice of screen sizes.
10.4 inch colour touch screen.....
And it WILL run off 12 volts.
IF you have the money its the easiest way to go...
Have done this for a few people (non fords)
In my main work I use many types of PLC equipment and software.
How about this.....
If you use a Redlion G3 HMI you can write your own protocol if
you know C code programming and attach it to any car providing
you have the protocol and interface details.
http://www.redlion.net/g3features/
Choice of screen sizes.
10.4 inch colour touch screen.....
And it WILL run off 12 volts.
IF you have the money its the easiest way to go...
Have done this for a few people (non fords)
18-12-2006, 02:50 PM
#131
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
so you could program a pectel compatible protocol into one of them and stream off live data into it from the ecu as it already has a buit in rs232 /422 interface and have some fancy skyline GTR type displays of the engine with live data overlayed - nice,
that one says 24vdc not 12 though simon,,,
is that what you were thinking of for your new monitor..?
that one says 24vdc not 12 though simon,,,
is that what you were thinking of for your new monitor..?
18-12-2006, 03:10 PM
#132
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
They run off 12 volts ok
Yes, you can/I have done this for pectel data streams (T6 though)
They are not cheap Ł1400 +
I am talking about the colour LCD G3 versions as the smaller one do NOT
support custom protocols.
And no, this is NOT the new monitor as that is specially designed
hardware and custom software otherwise it would be very expensive.
They run off 12 volts ok
Yes, you can/I have done this for pectel data streams (T6 though)
They are not cheap Ł1400 +
I am talking about the colour LCD G3 versions as the smaller one do NOT
support custom protocols.
And no, this is NOT the new monitor as that is specially designed
hardware and custom software otherwise it would be very expensive.
18-12-2006, 04:08 PM
#133
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GARETH T
sounds like rockwell allen bradley gear! rip off yanks
Some years ago the company vanished, my HD crashed and I can nol longer install the program as it asks me for the transfer code. I hate that as I can no longer use the program ive paid for.
Understand why some software need that proctection though and it works fine as long as they offer customer support in case something goes wrong.
18-12-2006, 04:46 PM
#134
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by SECS
Dave,
They run off 12 volts ok
Yes, you can/I have done this for pectel data streams (T6 though)
They are not cheap Ł1400 +
I am talking about the colour LCD G3 versions as the smaller one do NOT
support custom protocols.
And no, this is NOT the new monitor as that is specially designed
hardware and custom software otherwise it would be very expensive.
They run off 12 volts ok
Yes, you can/I have done this for pectel data streams (T6 though)
They are not cheap Ł1400 +
I am talking about the colour LCD G3 versions as the smaller one do NOT
support custom protocols.
And no, this is NOT the new monitor as that is specially designed
hardware and custom software otherwise it would be very expensive.
12 V
Ł1400
free programming software
encrypted pectel protocol
new monitor
tell us more - where are you upto with this? is it due anytime soon? are you still running the development of it in your spare time?
19-12-2006, 02:10 PM
#135
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
The pectel protocol for weber based ecu's is not encrypted that much.
Anyone with the right abilities and information can do it.
If you buy the G3 I will give the protocol to you or even program it for you
so then you can do your own graphics...
The pectel protocol for weber based ecu's is not encrypted that much.
Anyone with the right abilities and information can do it.
If you buy the G3 I will give the protocol to you or even program it for you
so then you can do your own graphics...
19-12-2006, 05:11 PM
#136
Testing the future
SECS if you know the pectel datastream protocol, why haven't you released a monitor to be compatible with it? would surely sell well and is imo better than the product that we know as a secs monitor as it doesn't need to do the ADC?
19-12-2006, 09:48 PM
#137
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
SECS if you know the pectel datastream protocol, why haven't you released a monitor to be compatible with it? would surely sell well and is imo better than the product that we know as a secs monitor as it doesn't need to do the ADC?
Find someone to sell them for me that wont stab me in the back or
doesnt have a conflict of interest ( if they sell similar products).
Or
Someone make me a sensible offer for the right to make them.
I have two versions... One based on the existing monitor hardware
the other on new hardware design that will work on new cars such as
the focus RS and ST (like the car I just got
)Designing products is easy for me, finding the right business set up
takes longer as I am sticking to what I know best.
I actually had a PC version monitor done neartly 14 months ago written
in Delphi Code but someone I respect is selling a similar product and I
wont compete with them on that basis as mine would be much cheaper.
20-12-2006, 08:20 AM
#138
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by SECS
Dave,
The pectel protocol for weber based ecu's is not encrypted that much.
Anyone with the right abilities and information can do it.
If you buy the G3 I will give the protocol to you or even program it for you
so then you can do your own graphics...
The pectel protocol for weber based ecu's is not encrypted that much.
Anyone with the right abilities and information can do it.
If you buy the G3 I will give the protocol to you or even program it for you
so then you can do your own graphics...
might have to see about asking santa about a touch screen
will it be able to test the outputs and reset the ecu aswell?
how far haev yuo gone down the reverse engineering of the pectel protocol?
20-12-2006, 08:52 AM
#139
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
I have the full protocol for both types of pectel monitor.
(The one with the tuning knobs and the one without)
Also, with both variants of weber ecu L8 and P8.
And of course, the details for creating the hardware interface
I have the full protocol for both types of pectel monitor.
(The one with the tuning knobs and the one without)
Also, with both variants of weber ecu L8 and P8.
And of course, the details for creating the hardware interface
20-12-2006, 08:57 AM
#140
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
nice - i assume the p8 needs modding the same as any other pectel monitor install with the links and breaks around that chip..?
is there a datalogging function in there aswell...?
is there a datalogging function in there aswell...?
20-12-2006, 10:05 AM
#142
Originally Posted by SECS
Find someone to sell them for me that wont stab me in the back or doesnt have a conflict of interest ( if they sell similar products).
This is getting tedious now
. I am the first to admit your are a clever person, but how about all the people YOU knifed in the chest, by LYING TO THEIR FACES when all they were doing was trying to HELP you, and then you wonder why the fuck they dropped you like a red hot brick ? You're having a laugh .When you finally accept the issue is YOU and deal with it properly, that is the time you will find people willing to take you on again, but continuing to push the blame on other people for YOUR failures is rediculous
. Yes people did drop you and stop wanting anything to do with you, but NOT FOR NO REASON! 
20-12-2006, 10:28 AM
#143
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike,
Did I mention your name ? ..... I did not.
Has some of Phils paranoia rubbed off on to you
You are now selling RP Labs stuff which could cause of conflict of
interest and that is the ONLY reason you should take any reference
from my above statements.
The sad fact is, the two people who are ideal to sell any pectel derivative
product I have (you and Stu) have tie ups with RP.
Did I mention your name ? ..... I did not.
Has some of Phils paranoia rubbed off on to you
You are now selling RP Labs stuff which could cause of conflict of
interest and that is the ONLY reason you should take any reference
from my above statements.
The sad fact is, the two people who are ideal to sell any pectel derivative
product I have (you and Stu) have tie ups with RP.
20-12-2006, 10:48 AM
#144
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
TBH i wouldn't have though that selling similar products from different suppliers is a problem,
ill use mike as an example - he sells mongoose AND scorpion exausts,
he sells collins AND Ahmed chips,
he sells Bailey, Pro-Alloy and Spec -R bufty products.
I cant see how there is a conflict of interests, people will buy what they want - they pay their money and make their choices,
each product has its pro's and cos but these are different for different people with different situations,
lets not let this 'useful' post get into a locked down argument
ill use mike as an example - he sells mongoose AND scorpion exausts,
he sells collins AND Ahmed chips,
he sells Bailey, Pro-Alloy and Spec -R bufty products.
I cant see how there is a conflict of interests, people will buy what they want - they pay their money and make their choices,
each product has its pro's and cos but these are different for different people with different situations,
lets not let this 'useful' post get into a locked down argument
20-12-2006, 12:03 PM
#145
Originally Posted by SECS
Mike,
Did I mention your name ? ..... I did not.
Has some of Phils paranoia rubbed off on to you
You are now selling RP Labs stuff which could cause of conflict of
interest and that is the ONLY reason you should take any reference
from my above statements.
The sad fact is, the two people who are ideal to sell any pectel derivative
product I have (you and Stu) have tie ups with RP.
Did I mention your name ? ..... I did not.
Has some of Phils paranoia rubbed off on to you
You are now selling RP Labs stuff which could cause of conflict of
interest and that is the ONLY reason you should take any reference
from my above statements.
The sad fact is, the two people who are ideal to sell any pectel derivative
product I have (you and Stu) have tie ups with RP.
I'm talking about everyone I know who has had dealings with you, saying the EXACT same thing, no names mentioned, as it is the same for EVERYONE.
Originally Posted by Dave Henshall
TBH i wouldn't have though that selling similar products from different suppliers is a problem,
ill use mike as an example - he sells mongoose AND scorpion exausts,
he sells collins AND Ahmed chips,
he sells Bailey, Pro-Alloy and Spec -R bufty products.
I cant see how there is a conflict of interests, people will buy what they want - they pay their money and make their choices,
each product has its pro's and cos but these are different for different people with different situations,
lets not let this 'useful' post get into a locked down argument
ill use mike as an example - he sells mongoose AND scorpion exausts,
he sells collins AND Ahmed chips,
he sells Bailey, Pro-Alloy and Spec -R bufty products.
I cant see how there is a conflict of interests, people will buy what they want - they pay their money and make their choices,
each product has its pro's and cos but these are different for different people with different situations,
lets not let this 'useful' post get into a locked down argument
.
20-12-2006, 01:33 PM
#147
No Simon, it doesn't, I just get absolutely fed up with you blaming everyone else for the situation YOU got yourself into.
If you showed the slightest sign of remorse and culpability, then you would find people's attitude towards you might change. However, it is ALWAYS what other people did to you and NEVER what you did to them to make them do it to you.
If you showed the slightest sign of remorse and culpability, then you would find people's attitude towards you might change. However, it is ALWAYS what other people did to you and NEVER what you did to them to make them do it to you
.
20-12-2006, 01:44 PM
#148
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by SECS
Allen Bradley stuff is shite
20-12-2006, 01:48 PM
#149
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Macclesfield - you'll never leave....!
Posts: 4,519
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by GARETH T
there hardware NEVER brakes
20-12-2006, 01:50 PM
#150
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by Dave Henshall
Originally Posted by GARETH T
there hardware NEVER brakes
20-12-2006, 02:40 PM
#154
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by Dave Henshall
my site has currently 1154 Honeywell PLC's, and i manage the software library for them
you find our nerdy-ness attractive
20-12-2006, 02:51 PM
#157
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gareth,
When I dissed the AB stuff I was speaking as someone who specifys,
designs and programs the stuff.
It is reliable as are most PLC's , but expensive, outdated compared to
others and programming them is comparably easy but they dont readily
support the latest PLC programming languages that many customers
demand these days.
Dave,
You forgot about the 256k of interpreter code in the system that is pre
written for the lazy ass programmers.
When I dissed the AB stuff I was speaking as someone who specifys,
designs and programs the stuff.
It is reliable as are most PLC's , but expensive, outdated compared to
others and programming them is comparably easy but they dont readily
support the latest PLC programming languages that many customers
demand these days.
Dave,
You forgot about the 256k of interpreter code in the system that is pre
written for the lazy ass programmers.