gus

iTrader: (1)

do they work on turbo' d motors?

only ever seen on a n/a engines


would they be a better option? or is that why no one seems to be running them?


thanks


gus

Anonymous

They work well if you have management that can cope with them.

T6 is what rainbird is using and i think Hadland too.

gus

iTrader: (1)

what are the advantages then chip?


management should be up to it

Anonymous

By being closer to the engine you get a better throttle response.

Your plenum is already sat there full of boost even though your engine isnt yet using it, so when you open the throttle, its there straight away, where as obvioulsy at part throttle normally the plenum is only partially presurised.

What management do you have?

It needs either a scalable increase based on TPS (which something like megasquirt can do but L8 for example cant) or better still half a dozen maps like T6 that can be interpolated between, or finally i believe its possible to do with multiple map sensors (one per cylinder) if you have an ECU capable of treating each cylinder seperately (like T10) but i have NO experience of it done that last way.

gus

iTrader: (1)

i will be running a ecu called f88, its quite new apparently


think ite made by R.E.D could be wrong thou



i was gonna use t6 buy have been this was favored over it by engine builder/mapper

Anonymous

Best bet is to talk to your mapper about what it can do then mate as i must confess ive never even heard of it!

gus

iTrader: (1)

his the one who suggested it over t6


so cant be too shabby


(think pat doran runs it)


just his never in country long enough for me talk to him about these throttle bodies

Big Will_

I had a long chat with Stu about this a few months ago - it can be done on some of the old Weber management and Pectel T6/T10.

With the Pectel i know you virtually have to map each cylinder - so expect the mapping bill to multiply...

gus

iTrader: (1)

o dear

stuart collins

iTrader: (7)

can be done i no of 3 turbo cars that are on/where runnin them

Stavros

Can be done.

Pretty pointless tho IMO, lot of money for minimal effects, just slightly better throttle response, no more power over an unrestrictive single throttle.

Anonymous

Just to clarify, doing it and getting your car to run aound acceptabley on it is pretty easy.

Doing it and really exploiting it to actually see any benefit from it is whats hard.


Hope that makes sense!

gus

iTrader: (1)

work involved is not important



to me as im not doing it



but


put it this way, which would you have if had the option?

Stavros

Individiual throttles are technically better than one.

But WHY fit it, surely your car is not perfection in every other way?
Surely you got better stuff to waste cash on?

Give me the money, ill use it

Anonymous

As steve says, if money was NO object and i could get it on the right management etc and spend the time/money setting it up properly, then i would go individual, but only if it was on a car like hadlands as otehrwise i would find other places to spend the money first TBH that give better gains

Big Will_

Its one of those things that you do to exploit every last drop of power from the engine AFTER you've done every thing else

Anonymous

I would say it doesnt really change peak power, not from what ive seen anyway, its just better for throttle response.

Sounds great down the pub chatting about your car though

gus

iTrader: (1)

thanks for help on this chaps


hopefully i should have most bases covered as to other aspects of the car



not quite on par with martins car but whos is

Big Will_

Surely the physical diameters of say 4 x 40mm throttle bodies giving a rough area of 790mm squared against a single 65mm throttle body with an area of 320mm squared would suggest that any top end 'asthma' could be overcome due to the physical access of the air into the head?

The one thing i'm surprised hasn't been brought up yet is ensuring a perfect 25% distribution to each body through the plenum and ensuring each cylinder gets the same AFR etc.

GARETH T

the problem as i see it is we fit large turbos which kill responce

if we was building a high compression engine with small turbo, then go for throttle bodies

Anonymous

Distribution issues are the same as with any cossie inlet manifold.
But yes, be careful of course!


Only one throttle is ever flowing at once, so you dont get to breathe down four, and if the TB was a restriction the answer would just be to fit a larger TB.

Once you have a TB the size of your pipework, its not a restriction anyway when fully open, think about it!

richard_syko

An even 25% would only be seen on an N/A though surely.

A turbo would still need some type of plenum feeding it which would have different pressures. It would be better but not perfect. Thats why most are tapered. (Scandinavian/Norwegian not sure)

Not fact just a thought.

Big Will_

Oh yeah, i understand that part mate - the old idiot explanation of a bucket of water with a tiny hole and a bucket of water with a huge hole etc.

Based on that theory then - would you say you needed to to increase the pipework diameter proportionally when going to 4 independent TB's as per the surface area thing i posted above?

Not trying to argue here mate - just curious and typing what i'm thinking

Anonymous

NO engine ever gets exactly 25% per cylinder if you think it is then it just means you arent measuring accuranetly enough, lol, but yes the key thing on a turbo is the plenum shape.

Anonymous

No because as i said only one is open at once, the size of your pipework is still dictated by the flow requirements of your turbo the same as it was on a single TB, you havent really changed anything that effects it.

Yes if you were in a situation where:
Your single TB was restricting the engine a LOT
You had small pipework.

Then once you removed that small single TB you might then benefit from larger pipework.

richard_syko

I meant more theoretically.

Do the top UK cosworth tuners map cyclinders indvidualy? Theres a group of boys in uni looking into with pressure tranducers on a bike engine.

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

well i got titan motorsport rollerbarrels and SECS S8 running a T35 - so i fookin hope it works lol?

F88 is used by Pat Doran in his fez rally cross car (full feature on the car in this months Fast Ford )

F88 is an awsome bit of kit, multi maps and it also datalogs everything from steering angle to how hard you press the brakes/ gas!!

but it aint cheap

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

My CVH(Turbo) was running individual throttle boddies as will the ZT Turbo.

Throttle response was vastly improved. As mentioned above.

We also saw an increase in peak power(combination of TB's & Plemum).

Peak power was a little over 7200rpm with power curve not dropping off until around 8000rpm.

Downside was/is time involved mapping.

reality

F88 is very similar to Pectel

nthorpey

The F88 ECU is made by the electronices side of Advanced Engine Research in Basildon ( www.aerltd.com ) I used to work there last year as a machinist. The F88 is their own design and used n their Le mans engines. It will run TB's on a turbo as that is one of their engine designs.

Also the bloke who runs AER used to work for pectel I believe Tommy at Field does a lot of work with / through AER.

Tony Ryan

I have a 600BHP plus Turbo cosworth on throttle bodies and Turbonetics T66 (maybe T61 cant remember )run by T6 2000 coming in next week so i'll post up some plenum shape pics for you .

gus

iTrader: (1)

yeah i know tommy does have good working relation with A.E.R


cheers for all your input guys

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

that would be very helpful if you can stick some pics up tony

Rab

Andy, does your car use the throttle butterfly inside the throttle bodies, or, a single TB before the plenum?

I've seen both set ups and was just wondering.

Alg1k

iTrader: (2)

MY Dolomite engine on TBs and gt35 quite a while ago

_DAN_

Why all the black boxes?Alg1k

gus

iTrader: (1)

where the pic go?

_DAN_

I've got the insight

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

Independant Throttle Boddies mate, each with there own butterfly

gus

iTrader: (1)

has anyone run als on throttle boddies?



if so how?