Damo V

I have read the link, thats media stuff... give me a home office link

Jimboxr4x4

What you posted was absolutely correct but it all changed in December last year. I'm glad you didn't ask me the finer points of the new legislation as I was in the pub with my colleagues when we were supposed to be doing the computer training package. Just as well I don't actually have to arrest that many people!

Jimboxr4x4

Trust me it has all changed. However, even though there is now a power of arrest I really can't see anyone using it. Just as there is effectively a power of arrest for littering it would be a VERY SAD person who exercised it. So, getting back to the original topic I can't see it being a problem.

Damo V

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/oper...ace-codes.html

Code G deals with powers of arrest under section 24 the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 as amended by section 110 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005

Downlad file \/ \/ \/ \/

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news...df?view=Binary

Jimboxr4x4

Can you see that what you posted before has now changed?

I wouldn't come on here and tell a welder how to weld because I read a manual once. The link I provided gives you all the details you need in laymens terms.

Jimboxr4x4

I stand by my

Damo V

You say there are no powers of arrest under Sec24pace, but the home office link above (as of dec 31 2005 )states there is??

Jimboxr4x4

There are no longer 'Arrestable offences' as ALL offences are now 'arrestable'. These 'Arrestable Offences' were seperate offences under sec 24 as oposed to sec 25 PACE offences and offences that carried their own specific power of arrest. Its Police terminology.

Now ALL offences are 'Arrestable' as oposed to the elite band of offences that were 'Arrestable Offences'. Therefore this elite band is now no longer as offences come into this category.

Ten out of ten for effort but you are reading too much into what you are reading. Read the laymens guide on the BBC news link. This is better really as you will tie yourself up reading the Home Office link.

Damo V

I havent refered to sec25?? I have only known and refered to, sec24 ammended 31/12/05

I still say common assault does not have its own power of arrest and is "summary only"?

As I say I bow to your superior knowledge

Jimboxr4x4

Anyway, everyone that I know of that has been nicked since this came in has been under the criteria laid out in 2.9 (e) - To allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence. This would cover this situation (or infact any situation) therefore anyone COULD be nicked for any offence. Therefore he could be nicked for common assault is now has a POWER OF ARREST.

The defence rests

Damo V

Right I have read that again part of it states



so with an offence such as common assault which is summary only, to necessitate arrest the officer would have to satisfy part of Sec 24 (G) of Pace

which is what I said from the outset

Damo V

This is how I understand it too, but obviously thats indirectly

Jimboxr4x4

And as I previously stated this is covered by 2.9 (e) as follows: 'To allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence' which means an arrest could be justified.

Damo V

So are you prepared to admit I was right and you were wrong when I said common assault is not (directly) an arrestable offence (but summary only) ???

Jimboxr4x4

Also one of the subsections of 2.9 (e) states 'where it is necessary to obtain evidence by questioning' which is also one of the reasons needed for detention at a Police Station' and basically applies to just about all offences that are under investigation.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

A police officer admit he was wrong? Now THIS I can't wait to see .

Rich_w

IMHO (ignoring the Police aspect for now)

Assaulting another member of staff (for whatever reason) will 99% of the time constitute Grounds for dismissal. You'll also probably find that anything thats prior will not count as you made no formal complaint prior to this incident.

I would see an Employment Law solicitor to see for sure though.

Jimboxr4x4

All (and I mean absolutely ALL) offences are now arrestable (including common assault). Yes, there is a requirement that there is a necessity to arrest but every offence is covered by 2.9 (e) even if none of the other parts apply. All summary only offences are now arrestable.

The only difference between a summary only offence and any other offence is that a summary only offence must be dealt with within 6 months and at a Magistrates Court, with the maximum sentance one of 6 months.

Jimboxr4x4

You'll have to wait a little longer Mr Rainbird, on account of the fact I ain't wrong

Damo V

I stand by what I have written... You are simply bending the legislation to suit the circumstances. I appreciate that is often a necessity and the way it is, but technically, by the letter of the law I am correct

Jimboxr4x4

Damo read the BBC website as they have summed it up pretty well:

'The powers mean people can be arrested for all offences, even minor ones like painting graffiti and dropping litter.

Currently officers can only arrest people suspected of committing crimes with at least a five-year jail sentence - although there are exemptions.

But the powers of arrest will not be automatic, as police officers will have to apply a "necessity test".

Current non-arrestable offences include impersonating a police officer, failing to stop a vehicle when ordered to do so, manufacturing or selling an offensive weapon, failing to hand over a passport to a court and unauthorised access or modification of computer material, which deals with some more minor hacking offences.'


Now, bare in mind that any offence can fulfill the necessity test under 2.9 (e). I can't explain it any clearer than this. I appreciate its hard to get to grips to with but there it is above in plain English.

Damo V

I have already quoted, stated and agreed with this in my posts above

Damo V

There is no Judge, Jury or Magistrate here so it would appear we are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue as I certainly wont back down

Jimboxr4x4

I appreciate your point but the fact is that a person who commits a common assault can now be arrested at any time. However, I do not think this will happen in this specific case as even though it would be lawful it would not be the best course of action due to the fact that this allegation is (to use Police terminology) a 'big pile of steaming pants'.

However, although I think you missing the point slightly, I do acknowledge your adversarial (upon which the the very legal process in this country is based) interlect. I think you should consider becoming a barister as you are able to pick away at the specific points of law that often make or break a case. I'm also sure there are a lot of people on this site that would make good use of your skills!

Jimboxr4x4

By the way, Mr Rainbird you should take note of this thread as all offences are now arrestable includes the offence of 'gross indecency'

Damo V

Very diplomatic of you

My knowledge is purely book/classroom/fact based my friend no "real world/real life" stuff

I hope I haven't come across as a "cocky little Łcuker" but discussing it further helps to educate me further

Thanks Teacher ROFL

Fiecos Dan

see post below for final writen statment. Edited 8-5-05

saff_cossie

Very interesting read, especially Damo and the Officer.

Fiesta Cossie - 3 of the pics dont work but seeing as you use a computer to post on here, I am assuming you have some sort of word proccessing application. I would use that to create a more professional looking and easily editible document.

Fiecos Dan

Thats wot i will do, but work wanted a statement asap (told me about 3pm yesterday)
and as i take 6 years to type any thing, and i want to get back to work, and sed i'll write them a rough version, and give them a type'd version on monday.

All pages are coming up on my computer.

filthyrichie

go and kick his head in and bury him in a skip....that way no more confrontation at work ...when they drag you in for murder jsut tell em u aint seen nowt,,,dont even know who you mean

its cast iron , seen it in a film once

Fiecos Dan

Damo V

I'm finding it quite hard to read it all, as its being resized by BB) will have a good look when you post up full text, but at a glance I would take out things which are opinion based (unless they are relevant to the scenario) for example, the bit at the beginning of this, "Which shows he was pissed off" there isn't a need to write that IMO. Let the reader draw a conclusion I reckon

Fiecos Dan

Cheers Damo.



"i've now typed it out"




Heres my final writen statment.

And Is how it happened,






5th May 2006

Without prejudice.


The an account of the events leading up to the incident on Wednesday 3rd May 2006


On around end of January 2006 Stuart and I were taking the Mickey out of each other whilst we worked, when I said something about a set of gates he smashed up whilst he was driving the fork truck. He walked off and said something under his breath.

There were a few people in the workshop asked me what his problem as he stormed off, and was all miserable. I said I didn’t know we were just taking the Mickey out of each other.

After that, he wouldn’t reply to my “good morning” or “good nights”, and I was getting attitude off him.

Around three weeks later, I had had a disagreement with Edwin regarding the way he spoke to David the apprentice.(which was getting sorted), At that point Stuart came over and said “Campion your taking the p*ss”, and he addressed me as a “TW*T”. I replied standing with my hand in my pocket, “don’t you ever call me a TW*T, who the fu*k are you to say I take the p*ss, you’re a nobody”.

Edwin intervened and told us both to sort out our dispute upstairs in the office, so we both went upstairs and Stuart said that I came in on Saturdays and did not do the amount of work that I should have done. I replied that Paul Miller and Herman Collins were also working that Saturday with me and that he should ask them what I was doing, and they would tell you I was working all morning either in the cutting shed or at my work area.

Stuart then replied that he was sorry, and that “it was the wrong example”, but said I had been “talking too much with David that morning.”

We left the discussion and both Stuart and I agreed that we would try and get along. I proceeded to keep to the agreement to be civil and was polite to him at work but on each occasion he ignored me, so I chose to stay out of his way.

Then around the beginning of April, Stuart came into the cutting shed, and said to me “what’s your problem”, I asked him what he meant and he replied “(1) You took the ratchet straps off the lorry the other day, (2) You wouldn’t move a trolley when i asked and (3) you put my job on the floor off the trolley”.

I said to Stuart that I had not done anything to try and cause trouble.

I explained that
1. “I needed the ratchet straps to deliver the job, so I took them off the lorry, and was going to replace them after I had done my delivery but by the time I had got back the lorry had already gone.
2. You asked me to move the trolley that I was working on, I replied ‘I will need a push please to do so, but you walked off. So I continued working on my job, which was on the trolley, till Andy (Orrill) approached me and asked me to move for Stuart.
3. I needed a trolley (due to the other two were being used) I used the spare one in the yard, which had a piece of steel on it (not knowing whose it was and due to it being there for ˝ a day I put it on the floor out of the way)”.

I said “I would put the piece of metal I had put on the floor back onto the (now free) trolley” Which I did as we spoke.

Since then I have asked Stuart a few times (once I said to him twice, so I knew he heard me) for a lift, and he just ignored me.

I have managed to keep out his way up until Wednesday 3rd May 2006, when the incident occurred.






RE: Incident on Wednesday 3rd May 2006




I came into work in the morning to find my work area in a mess, with the welder I use in the way of my tool box and bench, and tools everywhere. I knew Stuart (Orrill) was working here the day before, and as I was going straight out on site, I thought Stuart would clear it up before I returned off site.

At around 16.15 hours I returned off site to find my work area in the same mess.
I walked over the far side of the workshop (where Andrew Orrill and Stuart Orrill were working) to ask Andy if he wanted me to leave the Genny Lift on the back of the van. As I was waiting for Andy to finish the run of weld he was doing, Stuart looked up at me, where I asked “can you please put my work station back to how you found it, when you are ready”. Stuart responded quite aggressively, “FU*K OFF, DO IT YOURSELF” I said “Sorry, pardon”. He repeated the same thing. A Disagreement proceeded, till Andy said “will the both of you shut up, as I have a job to get out.”

So I said sorry, and asked Andy the question I went over there to ask, and Andy replied “leave it on the van, as Herman (Collins) might need it tomorrow”.

I went away and unloaded the rest of what was on the van from when I have just been on site, as I come back into the workshop, I saw Stuart in the corner of my eye, grinning towards me. So I walked over to Stuart, and asked “what is your problem, all you do is cause in trouble and try and get people sacked who you don’t like”. He lent over the bit of metal that was between us, and put his face in my face and said “you are the problem, acting like a child, and should FUCK OFF”, another disagreement proceeded, till Andy once again told us to pack it up. So I went over to my work area and started to clear up the mess, so I put all Stuarts tools onto his bench, put the welder back into place, and reconnected it, and then (as now I could get to my tool box, I put away my tools from site.

Paul Miller then walked to his work area (next to where Stuart and Andy were working.) Then I heard Stuart say to Paul, “did you see that Tw*t? He just kicked off cause i left his area in a mess” I ignored his comments and continued with my work, Stuart continued to talk about me loudly.

After a while I looked up, and again Stuart grinned, so i walked over towards him, and said “why have you got a chip on your shoulder”. He stepped towards me, we grabbed each other cloths, and as this happened, Stuart tripped over something on the floor, and lent back onto a bench behind him, we let go of each other some words were exchanged.

Stuart then looked at Andy at this point and said “You going to give him a verbal warning for that, I want you to give him a verbal warning now”. Andy shrugged his shoulders. So Stuart said “ok, if you won’t give him a verbal warning, I’m going to ring the police”. Andy at this point got fed up with the whole thing, and shouted “both of us to grow up, and GO HOME the pair of you, as all I want to do is get this job done tonight as the customer is waiting and all I’m getting is this sh*t”.

I went over to my work area to get changed, and Stuart went outside on his
phone.
After I got changed I went up stairs to see Barry and Edwin, as I got into the office Stuart and Edwin was looking through the Yellow pages for the phone number for the police.

Edwin asked me “what’s happened? Nothing like this should be happening at all”. So I told Edwin and Barry what happened, and Stuart agreed up to the point where we grabbed each other’s cloths, where his storey differs.
Barry turned to Stuart, and said “you don’t really want to ring the police over this.” And Edwin agreed, but said what’s happened, shouldn’t of happened, and we need to sort it. But Stuart said “if you won’t sack him, I going to carry on”.
Barry asked me “did anyone see this”, and I said “I think Andy saw it, if not he would have been welding, so he would of heard it”. So Barry went down to the workshop to speak to Andy.

As Stuart started to speak to the police on the phone, Edwin said to me lets go downstairs. Edwin went to see Andy and Barry, and I went to fill out my time sheet at my work area.

Andy come over to me, and shouted “I told you to go home. So go home now”. So I put the time sheet down, grabbed my bag, and left.

Later on about 17.45 hours, I got a phone call from Edwin, he said “I’m going to give you and Stuart the rest of the week off on full pay while I and Andy decide what needs doing.

On Friday early afternoon, Edwin rang me, and asked for me to right a statement of events. So I hand wrote a rough version of the events, and gave a copy to Edwin that afternoon, and said I will rewrite that out on a computer, and correct it where needed.




This is a true statement of events. Wording is as accurate as I can remember.


Danny Campion, 8th May 2006

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Hope you get it sorted Danny . I despise people like this bloke...

Fiecos Dan

Thanks Mike, i hope so too.


Yesterday i Spoke to a bloke from work, and he cant believe its goin so far, and sed if they sack me, they will have to sack him (Stuart) too.

Damo V

If thats all true, the bloke is a Cock... Dont think they can sack you just for that, but as said they can warn you...

I would add something at the bottom, saying (if you do )

How you enjoy job etc working there, etc can get on with most people etc, want to work out differences etc etc.. Just want to get back to work etc etc have excellent attendance record blah blah



........... Some people just have a clash of personalitlies and will NEVER get along... but you can avoid each other and have a mutual respect for each others opinions, which should go some way towards preventing this from happening again (If you want to)

Fiecos Dan

Damo,


i was planing on going into work, and having a dissussion with the Main boss (his brother) and say all that to his face,

and even say i'm willing to say sorry to stuart, if that helps.

Damo V

Takes a man

Bet he wont..

Fiecos Dan

Its like what the person i work with said,

Humble pie works, even if it taste's horrible.

Fiecos Dan

Popped into work tonight.

The delay has been Stuart (2nd party) has not handed his statement in yet.

But we are gonna be discussed tomorrow at 9am in a meeting, between 1 of the directors (not his brother, as they sed he will biased) Workshop manager and me, and a witness if i want.

So fingers crossed,