Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

only you have mentioned Joe
I was very neutral as to who was responsible for what on the owners car
The eprom is typical of south of watford area having no ID label on it
I just fixed the big issue that it had in the time I had available

750hp escos

Oh yeah sorry..im just ruling him out in case anyone or yourself might of thought it..

Weird though as its a real laggy engine that sounds like someone has tried to get going by putting a rally chip in it thinking the big ignition table might help???

Or maybe just a mix match of bits someone has slung together??

Anyhow sounds like your getting to the bottom of it all and will get it flying!!


cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

we have done phase 1 of the fix and it is much much much better
he now has a list of advisories for phase 2
advance wasn't the issue with the car as it is only over advanced right at the top retard is an issue as well
the yb 3bar cosworth chip is a very good map for what it was designed for

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

I would agree with that,

Not so much with that.

Live mapping is just guess work on the ignition timing front imo, the best you can do is advance timing until you find the det limit or leave timing at a point that isn't as good as it could be. On the rollers its a totally different story, I wouldn't rpm hold at mid-high boost obviously rather do various power runs altering timing at various points each time.

Rob,

costina

iTrader: (1)

Just a quick question where is the cooling fan(in the video)??

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Live mapping is not guess work I'm sure Stu Karl Norris and I would strongly disagree with you on that one
your preference Rob may be more related to your experience imo

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

In a massive box in front of the car and I'd you look closely it has a bungee holding the bonnet as without it would have blown on to the screen.

FairyBoostMother

No, the owners a thieving pikey who thinks he knows more than he does. Except all he can do is badly map customers cars using an ecu he stole the code for.

The state of my wiring loom after they had my car was horrific

costina

iTrader: (1)

Oh dear best i give them a miss.

FairyBoostMother

I would stick with someone with a good rep personally. You can't go wrong with folks like MSD, even for a power run. Just do a search on here for Mtech, there are loads of posts about Matt (owner) beings a toe rag. Everything from the quality of there products to their gash customer service.

Even their Ebay feed back is appalling!

costina

iTrader: (1)

Well i use MSD and have found Stu to be very helpfull and great advice and yes if he had a dyno a was'nt as far away i would be there..

Might try owen developments.

750hp escos

Absolutely agree 100%...If you take a car to det on the road and say lower the ignition say 2 degrees to get rid of det you may still have to much ignition in the map and there fore giving away power..

There is so many points in the rpm range this can happen so unless your in a controlled state ie a rr how can you make them points perfect??

On a good rr(dyno dynamics is the best)you can check this all the way through the rev range just like on a bench dyno so imo so much better than mapping on the road..
Tractive effort is the best tool for this as it shows you the car still making more power/torque and at some points you could add 3-4 degrees with no increase in power at all and in fact lose power,on the road you can never know this and therefore your giving power away..

You can also load the rr right up and make the car think its on a 1.6 up ward hill for example and then take the car right through the gears with det cans to check for det even right through 5th gear..doing that on the road and up a hill at 150mph+ is very hairy so another good reason why its alot more accurate on the rr...

Of course all the top live mappers arent going to agree but i reckon they could take their best road mapped car and take it to the rr and prove they can make it even better..

The likes of msd karl etc etc are very good at this as they have a great feel and knowing of when the car is performing very well and that is a great talent but they could all better every map on a good rr imo...


cheers danny

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Don't get where your going with this mate?

AFR's are easy to get right on the road I don't disagree. You can't get to all the cells but thats not so important. Its also not too difficult to produce an ignition table that doesn't det.

However, you don't really know how far away you are from det with out actually hitting det (on the road), and if you haven't hit det and backed off a little you are just leaving advance on the table. ie) theres no det at a certain load so you leave it because you think you could be close to the det limit.... On a dyno I can just watch the torque figure and obtain the largest safe advance value possible for any given load cell.

So for the ultimate map, I personally think that a combo of on the road AND dyno mapping is essential.

Genuine question:

If you believe 100% that you can produce a map with the most advance possible whilst keeping safely away from the det limit, whats your method on the road?

And yes, this is experience talking... I don't map cars for a living but have tuned on both the road and on a DD dyno. I find tuning on a RR far more preferable to being driven around trying to hit cells long enough to get the perfect tune.

Also, I've never used a hub dyno, why would you say these are comparable to live mapping... ie) being able to rpm hold at high loads etc? why would a hub dyno be any different to a DD dyno (beter worse) ignoring wheel spin. PS, I don't care about accurate bhp figures as I don't think these are important for mapping.

Rob,

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Yea thats my thinking also. Im not saying live mapping is shit or anything we all know its not. But I think the good live map guys use experience as a big tool. Its just my personal opinion that a decent dyno is a dream tool for any mapper.

Rob,

PS Danny, do you still have the spray shop near crawley?

750hp escos

Yep i fully agree with you again mate!!!

My paintshop is in cowfold mate on the 272 the road between cowfold and buck barn just as you leave the cowfold village..

If you come out of cowfold keep your eyes peeled for the we paint sign on your right and were up there..


cheers danny

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Legend. I don't know when but I will be in to see you at some point mate! All of my cars now need paint.



Rob,

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Rob Highest advance for each cell load point is wrong
what you actually are aiming for is max power with max retard
or most power with minimum advance
same thing

Rod-Tarry

Im shocked less Power from 3300 on than my GT42 & thats very laggy.
Are you sure there are any blades on the compressor .

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Blades on the exhaust wheel rod I suspect the old 5, 7 and 11 degree cut back exhaust wheel some one got confused with the angles and ground them all off

mattman1234

Whats wrong with essex turbo's,they rebuilt my t34.48,seems fine to me

750hp escos

Im being unfair as iv seen many be fine but ive also seen alot go wrong!!

Il only use vince mate from cr turbos as he has always looked after me..


cheers danny

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Sorry mate I typed my late night reply a little unclearly. But I was trying to say essentially the same thing, max torque is probably a better indication tho. I run the maximum amount of advance before either I hit det OR i see torque drop, I pull a degree or so off that at higher load points to be safe, If i find the det limit before I see a peak torque figure I generally pull more than one degree out.

Can you tell me how you can do the above on the road? This isn't me being a difficult tosser lol, I'm generally interested.

Rob,

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

lol, its amazing what a pikey company can achieve these days with an angle grinder.

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

a RR does not represent true road conditions
high road speed is not what is required for mapping it is engine speed and load
the car is equipped with 4 excellent retarders one on each corner lol
experience is everything

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

Your avoiding my question mate. I have never said that live road mapping can't produce superb results. But a combination of live road and dyno is the only way as far as im concerned to truly tune ignition tables to achieve max power. Im not saying that experience can't get you damn close... maybe close enough that it wouldn't be a difference someone could feel.

RR's don't really have to represent true road loads. As long as I can rpm hold and reach a range of loads that 'could' be seen on the road (kind of the max and min that would ever be seen) all is well.

But get what you say about the 4 retarders lol, things can get a little stinky though.

andym

iTrader: (1)

My ears have been burning

750hp escos

Spot on!!!!
Wrong!!!

Spot on again and of course your question will be dodged as the answer is any road mapper cant achieve what you can on the rollers..

I was trying to make the exact same point myself last night but couldnt say my point properly like you have above..

Max torque can be achieved well before det and to much advance can lose torque measuring this with tractive effort is the most effective way and there is no possible way that can be done on the road..

I would happily put money on it that any tuner after doing a road map couldnt then get that same map better on a dd rr??

I bet no one would take my offer up??


cheers danny

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

I'll repeat what I have posted in the past
engine dyno, Hub dyno/RR. real world driving mapping
Thats how oe is stuff is done
You cannot state that a RR road is the only way to do it
The RRs mere mortal have access too are nothing like the facilities OE manufacturers have available too them
So I will reiterate you cannot map a car properly on a RR alone
It is just a useful tool for certain aspects
I had my own RR for 20 years I did not have to rely on borrowing or booking other peoples
So I know exactly what is possible to be done on a RR

You map them how you prefer but I will do it my way

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

Danny you do get excitable when you think someone has agreed with you
when in fact nobody has
You are obsessed with DD rolling roads it's a set of rollers with a pair of retarders like many other makes
Read my above post which I have stated on every RR argument you start

750hp escos

He uses a dd rr so of course he will agree with me,just like everyone else does that uses one..
In reality we are never mapping anything from complete scratch as we all have plenty of base maps to work from..

Even the first base maps you worked from(the old terry drury stuff)all now owned by ahmed i believe have been bettered and bettered all the time ,they get better because our knowledge and tools get better!!

Your old rr was prob a piece of shit and prob wasnt worth using and since that old thing you just dont trust any other and deffo havnt tried using a dd rr..

Its cool though as your happy with your method and then happy to put your customers cars on the hub dyno even if others will disbelieve their power claims..

We will always argue about this tony as your so stuck in your ways and wont try a dd rr..

I know loads of tuners that actually road map and then use the dd rr to make that map better so i know im right..

They are building custom maps on custom one off engines on stand alone ecus so they can spend 3-4 days of road mapping and then perfecting that map on the rr..they always make it better not just in the ignition table but in the afrs at higher rpm..

If you dont believe this why not take my challenge and see if you can better one of your own maps on a dd rr???

I wont hold my breath mate as like i said your stuck in your ways...



cheers danny