vyper developments

Hi All,
I am just wondering if there is any of our wonderful constabulary that use this site, if so I would like to know the laws view on Flaming Exhausts.
I am not talking about aftermarket Flamer Kits here but I often get a bright orange flame when pedalling hard between gear changes in my stage 3 Cossie and I have been stopped by another motorist recently who was most concerned as to my safety as he thought I had a major problem and that the car was about to catch fire!
I just want to know where I stand with the law as I dont really want to get in any bother.

CheeRS, Mike

Coxy_UK

Yes mate, and unless/until I think up anything else, how about Section 40A Road Traffic Act 1988 which states:

A person is guilty of an offence if he uses, or causes or permits another to use, a motor vehicle or trailer on a road when--
(a) the condition of the motor vehicle or trailer, or of its accessories or equipment, or
(b ) the purpose for which it is used, or
(c ) the number of passengers carried by it, or the manner in which they are carried, or
(d) the weight, position or distribution of its load, or the manner in which it is secured,
is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person.

Seems to fit the bill to me

BlackSaff

I'd be interested to know how any of those fit the bill in your eyes please mate as i've often thought the same thing. Could you clarify in laymans terms please?

*Edit* Or do you mean as it could cause someone an injury?

Coxy_UK

Well part 'a' applies here, i.e. the condition of the vehicle causing danger of injury. Exhaust flames fall into this defination as they could indeed harm someone crossing behing, a biker close behind, etc.

You may not like or agree with it, and perhaps you can't see how your exhaust flame may be a danger, but this section alone of the Road Traffic Act will be enough more than likely enough to report you for the offence.

BlackSaff

Thanks!

Bit gutting though, as I doubt anyone will be anywhere near at 70mph when the throttle is lifted!

steventoon

Vyper, I'm a copper in Devon & Cornwall, ( I'll be back in the bay in October mate) and have to say I disagree that this falls within the definition of s40, as a ) deals with the condition of the vehicle ie jagged bodywork, excessive corrosion in structural area, a loose battery etc.

The flame I would guess is caused not by the condition of the vehicle but by a condition of the fueling ? Exhaust fumes / flames aren't obviously part of a vehicle.

If you used s40 for this then why wouldnt this legislation be used for vehicles that give off excess smoke ? This can be a danger in itself to other persons. Anyway I can't see how this would be proved in court as unless you had a flamer kit fitted the Police would not be able to replicate the flames and you could always claim it was a one off, apologise and promise to get it looked at.

I'm meeting with a vosa rep and force vehicle examiner on the 8th May, so I'll make some enquiries there if you like.

cheers

steve

Coxy_UK

I can see your point but at the time being it's the best I can think of and myself and my housemate would be happy enough to use s.40 in such a case and let the court decide. I certainly don't think you could be criticised for reporting someone under s.40 for exhaust flames.

I don't believe there is a specific piece of legislation relating to such flames, however there is a specific offence for smoke (which I remember as the offence code is my shoulder number). So in this case had to use some lateral thinking.

I'm actually at the Hendon driving school today which is obviously full of ex-traffic, so if I remember I will ask then.

The short answer is if you think it's wrong it probably is, driving a car which shoots out a flame now and then can't be a good thing mate.

steventoon

I agree it may not be a good thing.
Unless the flames are like that of a flame thrower than I couldnt even see this getting to court with the new charging system. Just look at the wording in a - the condition of the motor vehicle a flame out the exhaust has nothing to do with the condition of a motor vehicle.

When this legislation was written I cant imagine the lawyers had even thought of flames coming from a car. There are voids in the road traffic law, just look at the fitment of led washer jets. Not an offence unless they are red as they don't fit any of the defintions under the 1971 lighting regs for optional lamps, running lamps etc. Look at the grey area with stretch limos. You can cram more than 8 persons in the back yet should the driver have a psv and operators licence ? I would say that he should but there is nothing in the legislation at the moment that gives a definitive answer. Both these examples to me are wrong but there is no law saying so.

I'm meeting with the Traffic Commisioner for England and Wales next month re traffic issues. He is the authoritive person on road traffic legislation. I'll see what he has to say about this.

What driving course you on ? I did my advanced a couple of years ago and its the best course i've done in the job.

Steve

Coxy_UK

I'm actually just doing my response now, having driven an office posting for 9 months and then coming out I thought it's about time I did it. Actually have my final drive tomorrow!

I asked at Hendon and was told by a driving instructor who is ex-traffic that it would be section 40 or 40A, the obvious difference really being one is endorsable so depends if you feel it warrants 3 points.

He stated that the condition of the vehicle (be it the exhaust/fuels system etc) is causing the flame, and the flame being dangerous means that the condition of such a vehicle involves a danger of injury.

If no flamer kit has been added, then the flame really is caused by the condition of the vehicle itself, regardless of which part or system is responsible.

vyper developments

Hi Guys,
thanks for the info, I have taken all your points in but I guess there must be many more folks on this site with cars that exhibit similar behaviour. I just wonder if anybody else has been in bother with the police for this, and if so what was the outcome?

CheeRS, Mike

steventoon

Just got back in from work and had some stuff e mailed to me from my VOSA contact and also spoke to the CPS.

Basically its as Coxy says, except the non endorsable offence comes under regulation 100 of the Road Traffic Act, and is slightly different in that it states that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to any person in or on the vehicle or on a road. S40A just states a danger of injury to any person.

To VOSA and the CPS I described what Mike had stated ie a flame occured when accelerating hard and only changing gear, and I assumed that the flame wasn't very big and was very brief. I also assumed that this did not happen under normal driving conditions.

Both asked what danger this flame caused. I assumed that as this flame was relatively small and brief, that a) there was no risk of Mikes car going up in flames and b) no reason to assume that any following cars would catch fire.

The CPS stated to me that under the above circumstances you could not summons for this as under s40A the danger has to be more than a distant possibility. They also stated that unless you had an admission of guilt then it was probably not within the public interest to proceed anyway.

If the flame was continuous or happening frequently when driving under normal conditions then you probably would have good reason to proceed.

Anyway Mike, I wouldn't worry, your hardly likely to be driving hard with the Plod behind you so I can't imagine that you'd be captured for this. If a member of the public did complain its your word against theres and even if it were inspected then one thing a Police vehicle examiner can't do is take it out for a drive and floor it in an attempt to re create the flames !

Newton Abbot traffic centre shuts at 2 am now so go for a blast in the early hours, after this time you'll be lucky to see an Exeter or Plymouth traffic car around south Devon mate. I was in a pursuit last year and the nearest traffic car to Brixham was Barnstable.

Cheers

Steve

Coxy_UK

Sorted nicely.

Of course if I see anyone with a chavtastic flamer kit they will get stuck on straight away!

Oh and I passed my final drive, so the roads of Kingston beware!

steventoon

Congratulations mate, what grading did you get ?
I was up at Wimbledon nick last year on an enquiry and was impressed by the beemers the met have as response cars, very nice.

Coxy_UK

We dont get grades on response anymore, used to get numbered 1-5 I think it was but they have a new paperwork system in place now. Grades still exist for advanced obviously though.
The cars they have in the big driving school garage at Hendon are fantastic, some brand spanking new beemers there.

I just bought a Corgi Sapphire Cossie with Met livery on it from ebay, very cool

vyper developments

Hi Steve,
thanks for your efforts to clarify this situation, its greatly appreciated.
The flames (not huge but similar to that of the Cosworth BTCC from the late 80s) occur only very briefly during upward gear changes when the exhaust gas temperature is around 800 to 850 degrees C ( this I would call pressing on). This would not happen under normal everyday driving conditions.
Funny you should mention Newton Abbot I understand that there is a big car show there in the summer, It would be great to get a good turnout of nice Cosworths from the South Devon area. Will try and find out more details and post this up.

CheeRS, Mike