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General Car Related Discussion.To discuss anything that is related to cars and automotive technology that doesnt naturally fit into another forum catagory.
Is it possible to get a half decent ac dc tig welder for around £6-800.. I have never used a tig before but would like the ability to weld alloy if I want, I have seen a few on eBay one of them was recommended on a couple of YouTube channels and has a 7 year warranty but I Would guess they paid for the recommendation, link below
I bought a 200A R-Tech machine over 10 years ago....probably a lot longer actually and it has served me well. Generally they always seem to get very good reviews, but their current version of mine is substantially dearer than your listings.
Who knows.....a good welder will never weld good with a bad machine, but a good machine might help a bad welder learn.
As a long term investment, I do believe it is worth buying good stuff. But that isnt to say the ones in the links may not be good, no doubt they do work fine. Most stuff originates in China anyway
Thanks for the reply, in all honesty it’s something I will rarely use but it’s something I want, but want to limit my spend somewhat, the ones I’ve listed are German made and if your local they welcome you to try before you buy, obviously I won’t be doing that especially in this climate.
I just want the ability that if I have two pieces of aluminium that need fixing together I can,
Certainly doesnt say that on the side of the welder.
As said, everything is made in China anyway...if they have good quality controls in place it isnt an issue.
But for AC TIG, I would make sure and get a foot pedal with it for control, rather than a simple on/off button on the torch. I've seen Aaron the 6061.com guy have a variable button on his torch he sells....although I'd think that would take a lot more practise to use than the foot pedal.
At £500 it certainly looks fine, IMO the less knobs to play with the better.
The only thing I'd say there, is with aluminium you need a lot of current.
And there's even times when my 200A machine is pretty much at its limit say doing an intercooler or something, as the heat can soak away so fast.
So l'd say a 200A would be the minimum to consider.
Although 170A will certainly weld. Mine's an older one with rotary knobs, and it's pretty easy to use. The thought of lots of buttons and digital displays sound more complicated, although presumably they're not ?
Thanks for the reply, upon reading it seems the digital version even in a higher capacity is limited to thin aluminium, this is the next model up in analogue and its not much more expensive
Thanks for the reply, upon reading it seems the digital version even in a higher capacity is limited to thin aluminium, this is the next model up in analogue and its not much more expensive
Cheers, I will have a think on it, i have nothing that needs welding at the moment but I think I will spend the extra, I have also read r tech do discount codes sometimes so may wait for one
Cheers, I will have a think on it, i have nothing that needs welding at the moment but I think I will spend the extra, I have also read r tech do discount codes sometimes so may wait for one
As with all things like that, they seem dear. And yes they are.
But I've had my MIG for maybe 30 years ? It could probably do with replacement, but it works fine for about 90% of what I need...and it seemed expensive at around £500 when I bought it back in the early 90's
I bought the TIG as I say around 12-13 years ago, for I think similar money as today's prices. It seemed dear back then...it probably was. But as a long term investment..no big deal.
And BOC now offer sensible hobby/Volkzone deals where the gas is actually sensibly priced compared to years gone by. Although you guys would have far more choice of suppliers in England, BOC more or less had a monopoly for years here. Paying BOC rental for years and for gas....was not a good investment, but ha no choice. They were a rip off. Bottle rental and gas is about half the price it was years ago.
But I would go for something like that, as you can go through a lot of gas especially if you're learning and practising. The cheaper Hobbyweld type deals others offer...bottles are cheaper, but hold much much less gas for the money, so represent very bad value if using a lot.
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
I bought one in 2012 from China on ebay for about £500. the brand is Cobel which was a common name at that time but all these Chinese welders are similar inside and just badge engineered with some of the switches and knobs moved around and a different colored box- R-tech ones are too. R-tech have a good reputation for service however as do Jasic which is another common brand in UK.
My Cobel one worked perfectly till a couple of weeks ago and I'll probably get around to trying to fix it one day. its very well put together using branded components and proper connections etc inside.
Needed one straight away however so bought this from Rally Design last week for £466 delivered from UK and its works great and is also well made https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/produc...ducts_id=24137 It doesn't even say what the warranty is but you could buy 2 off these for the cost of an r-tech equivalent and generally these things get cheaper to make over time.
BTW - the "German" one mentioned above is likely to Stahl Werk brand. They are Chinese like the rest of them though it says something like "German designed and engineered" on the side. They say that in the case of a fault within 7 years they will collect from UK, fix it and return to you at their cost. sounds good at first but when you try to buy one it turns out they don't take credit cards but pretend that they do take credit cards! in fact, you are buying using your card via paypal which I think means you don't get CC protection so a little bit dodgy there although they also sell them on ebay for another £50. A friend's got one and it works well however.
That Blackline one looks pretty decent, and same knobs as my own, albeit yes in different places. Ultimately most of the affordable stuff is made in China, including my old R-Tech.
After a year or so, the gas solenoid in mine failed and I had to open it up to investigate. They sent me out a new solenoid and it's been fine ever since.
Normally it would have been a return to base warranty, but in my case it would have been mental to bother shipping it back and forward for such a simple fault, and they were happy enough to just send me the part it needed.
But much as the post above....once you've had a tool like a welder. Doesnt really matter how often it's used....if it's broke, you'll either need it fixed asap or you'll just buy another.
They are an invaluable tool to have. I know if mine broke I'd spend the money again without hesitation. Still not sure I'd opt for a cheaper unit though. But as we all know, all the chinese crap has come a long way from when it all first appeared and quality is generally pretty good. Hopefully more so from UK suppliers who are taking up warranty responsibilities.
Years ago, many were buying direct from China which would be more problematic.
The power aspect is worth noting though.
At lower currents most could run quite happily off a standard 13A plug. I wired mine for a 16A socket anyway.
But that 250A machine is asking for a dedicated 32A socket.
I'd say below say 160-170A it'd still be ok for short blasts on a 13A plug. But for heavier work and especially thick alloy work, it will need the bigger power supply, as it does sap a lot of power and you dont want to be overloading circuits and wiring.
I bought one in 2012 from China on ebay for about £500. the brand is Cobel which was a common name at that time but all these Chinese welders are similar inside and just badge engineered with some of the switches and knobs moved around and a different colored box- R-tech ones are too. R-tech have a good reputation for service however as do Jasic which is another common brand in UK.
My Cobel one worked perfectly till a couple of weeks ago and I'll probably get around to trying to fix it one day. its very well put together using branded components and proper connections etc inside.
Needed one straight away however so bought this from Rally Design last week for £466 delivered from UK and its works great and is also well made https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/produc...ducts_id=24137 It doesn't even say what the warranty is but you could buy 2 off these for the cost of an r-tech equivalent and generally these things get cheaper to make over time.
BTW - the "German" one mentioned above is likely to Stahl Werk brand. They are Chinese like the rest of them though it says something like "German designed and engineered" on the side. They say that in the case of a fault within 7 years they will collect from UK, fix it and return to you at their cost. sounds good at first but when you try to buy one it turns out they don't take credit cards but pretend that they do take credit cards! in fact, you are buying using your card via paypal which I think means you don't get CC protection so a little bit dodgy there although they also sell them on ebay for another £50. A friend's got one and it works well however.
great post thanks, could you let me know what comes in the kit? And how well it works, looking at the link if it works well at 250amps it’s a third of the price of rr tech and as you say I could buy 3 for the same price
My garage has a 40amp supply so a dedicated supply is possible if needed,
thinking more into this I had a thought.. I was with a customer through work a couple of months ago and he was a buyer for snap on, he showed me a few things he has sourced and they were all from China and only around £75 for something selling for near £1000.. impact guns etc
There is a lot of poor quality stuff made in China but equally there is also top quality stuff as well. My brother swears by the lathe and milling machine he has and some of the Chinese performance parts for my son's Subaru Impreza WRX are very good quality but at a much more reasonable price.I don't think you will have any problems with the welder and you will save yourself plenty of money!!
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
the welder comes per the pictures on Rally Design site - pedal / reasonable torch and a useless mask. buy a decent mask. the ground leads a bit short only 2 metres but easily extended. it has a 32amp mains connector but comes with a female wall mounted socket as well which you'll need if you are doing heavy stuff but i don't need that so just fitted a std 13amp plug though from experience that will blow a 13a fuse pretty quick if you wind it up. the only complication with it was that the gas inlet is 9mm yes 9! so had to make up a connector to the 5mm hose from the regulator.
the welder comes per the pictures on Rally Design site - pedal / reasonable torch and a useless mask. buy a decent mask. the ground leads a bit short only 2 metres but easily extended. it has a 32amp mains connector but comes with a female wall mounted socket as well which you'll need if you are doing heavy stuff but i don't need that so just fitted a std 13amp plug though from experience that will blow a 13a fuse pretty quick if you wind it up. the only complication with it was that the gas inlet is 9mm yes 9! so had to make up a connector to the 5mm hose from the regulator.
i already have an auto welding mask for my mig so I think that should be ok, I more want a tig because I want one it’s not really needed so at that money it seems great. I needed some alloy welding and had to get a mate do it for me so it’s I skill I want to learn.
adapting the pipe won’t be an issue because I have a lathe so should be able to turn something up (I need the practice)
last question,, I have watched a few clips about tig welding and everyone seems to hold the torch in right hand and the filler in the left, is this a must?
I only ask because I was a heating engineer fo 15 years and hold the blow lamp and solder the opposite way round and I’m comfortable like that with lead joints etc
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
BTW - i also bought 2 of these on ebay for fun. almost certainly a scam but lets see if they arrive - refund form paypal if no-show. the listings been taken down now
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
if you're doing aluminium the key is cleanliness cleanliness cleanliness. did I say cleanliness?
get some acetone and stainless brushes (must be stainless!). the little packs of 3 small brushes you get from halfords / ebay or the local Pound shop typically have a stainless brush which is ideal. use it for nothing else but scraping off the oxide layer on the aluminum AFTER you have cleaned the metal first with the acetone. if you don't do that it may end in a puddle of the garage floor!
i already have an auto welding mask for my mig so I think that should be ok, I more want a tig because I want one it’s not really needed so at that money it seems great. I needed some alloy welding and had to get a mate do it for me so it’s I skill I want to learn.
adapting the pipe won’t be an issue because I have a lathe so should be able to turn something up (I need the practice)
last question,, I have watched a few clips about tig welding and everyone seems to hold the torch in right hand and the filler in the left, is this a must?
I only ask because I was a heating engineer fo 15 years and hold the blow lamp and solder the opposite way round and I’m comfortable like that with lead joints etc
This man is clearly one of those freaks that use the wrong hands for everything.....but by fuck he's a good fabricator and welder. And his videos ( and others online ) explain a lot.
if you're doing aluminium the key is cleanliness cleanliness cleanliness. did I say cleanliness?
get some acetone and stainless brushes (must be stainless!). the little packs of 3 small brushes you get from halfords / ebay or the local Pound shop typically have a stainless brush which is ideal. use it for nothing else but scraping off the oxide layer on the aluminum AFTER you have cleaned the metal first with the acetone. if you don't do that it may end in a puddle of the garage floor!
Yes and no.
Certainly when starting not having it clean will add the the headaches. But the more you weld, certainly for simple garage stuff, it becomes a little less critical.
I know I've been lazy on more than a few things and they've welded fine ( even by my poor standards ). And there are other videos with skilled people online showing stuff can still weld ok without going mad over cleaning.
But in general, yes you are right, everything clean bare dry aluminium, including the filler rod.
Tungstens...havent really a clue on that one, as so many seem to crossover to different materials. I'm currently on blue and a FUPA cup and they seem to be doing well for me. And 2.4mm tungstens and filler rod.
Tried the thinner rods that were supplied to me with the welder at the start and I couldnt get the rods anywhere near the weld without them melting lol.
Tungsten grinding....I do just use a flap wheel, but there was a video online where a proper grinder did seem to produce a much tighter and more controlled arc.
I'm doing ok though without it, but something I may consider in the future.
Tons of videos on Youtube though, both from Aaron 6061 and I think one was The Fabrication Series. I was watching a load of them over Xmas lying in bed doing fuck all.
But touching on that...it is worth adding an extra £200 or so for various consumables ( add gas too ) for getting started.
Tungstens, a method of grinding them, filler rods, gas, good mask etc, cleaning products, whether wire brushes, stainless wire wool ( kitchen scourers ), acetone etc.
I did use regular torch cups at first, then a gas lens, and now most recently the FUPA stuff with clear cup. And I do think the FUPA is helping me, but that's another £50 or so.
So maybe better to start with that, rather than upgrading each time and wasting money
Thanks so much for the advice because I have no idea what consumables I will need, could someone give me a few eBay links to what I need to get me started on top of that welder,
also rallydesign sellnthe welder on eBay for £446 inc delivery ind I can pay over four months on PayPal credit, just need to figure out what rods regulator to get etc and I think I will place an order, if it lasts a couple of years and gets use it will be worth it
Last edited by mk1turboestate; Apr 25, 2020 at 01:32 PM.
No idea how that quantifies against a BOC cylinder in terms of quantity, but it seems cheap enough. But yes pure Argon is what you want.
The machine may or may not come with a regulator and flow meter. If not, you need one.
I think it was a no 8 FUPA cup I bought which is suitable for both Alu and steels, and I use 2.4mm tungstens. I cant comment on how good or bad various colours are other than I recently started using blue and it seems fine vs the gold I tried before.
Do not compare UK/Euro colours to US videos, as they seem to use different colouring.
And I think it's 5032 is the generic filler rod for Aluminium, again 2.4mm diameter. 4043 is more towards cast welding. ( not sure on exact numbers from memory though.
Really..best to try and get all the consumables from one place, after speaking to them.
I bought a Chinese TIG in around 2008. Paid £440 for it back then, still got it, its a pulse machine, I use it often but not a pro user by any means. I use 2.4mm tungsten in white, lanthanted for aluminium and red for steels (though you can use white I believe now for all).
I weld quite a lot with it of both ferrous and non ferrous. Its ok, sure there is better out there. Can make a hell of a mess with it if you are not careful. Welding radiators and intercoolers is very difficult. Mines a 200a machine and will make a weld nicely on 10mm as long as you pre-heat everything.
Made everything on my car with it.
Supply current matters, I can't use mine of full for very long, 1) you can feel the current being lost when you weld as everything gets warm, 2) the torch get so frickin hot you can't hold it for much longer than 20 mins.
I am more than sure a 3 phase machine will be so much cleaner and nice but, at home, I am more than happy. Mine is similar to the RD one linked above.
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
Markk - what were you welding that took 20 minutes - anyway you can press the trigger and waste some argon to cool the torch?
the technology of how they work means that there's no logical reason that 3 phase will be "cleaner and nice" but I know what you mean about losing current and the torch getting hot. next step up from the sub £2k models is water cooled torch to address the heat issue.
BTW there's another very cheap ac/dc option around called a ROHR machine that's on eBay and amazon and direct from UK suppliers unionmart for £360ish delivered from Uk but no pedal supplied though you can get one for less than £50 from china (hand wipe the delivery before touching). this machine is ideal really since its also marketed by other companies in Uk (inc the one i bought as per my earlier post) and countless other suppliers. the circuit diagrams and servicing spec info are on line so should be reasonable easy fix by any tech repair place in the event of failure.
And if you blow on a hot iron....does it cool it down ? The gas in the torch has almost zero cooling effect. The torches do just get warm during use, and with a lot of welding can get too hot to hold.
As said earlier. AC welding uses huge amounts of current....that means a lot of heat electrically. You could upgrade to a water cooled torch, but for DIY it really isnt necessary
Markk - what were you welding that took 20 minutes - anyway you can press the trigger and waste some argon to cool the torch?
the technology of how they work means that there's no logical reason that 3 phase will be "cleaner and nice" but I know what you mean about losing current and the torch getting hot. next step up from the sub £2k models is water cooled torch to address the heat issue.
BTW there's another very cheap ac/dc option around called a ROHR machine that's on eBay and amazon and direct from UK suppliers unionmart for £360ish delivered from Uk but no pedal supplied though you can get one for less than £50 from china (hand wipe the delivery before touching). this machine is ideal really since its also marketed by other companies in Uk (inc the one i bought as per my earlier post) and countless other suppliers. the circuit diagrams and servicing spec info are on line so should be reasonable easy fix by any tech repair place in the event of failure.
20 mins use at high current comes around quickly if you have prepped everything. Even making oil tanks, sump guards. Soon mounts up time wise.
The gas does nothing to cool the torch.
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
Originally Posted by markk
The gas does nothing to cool the torch.
that's nonsense, of course it does - that's how they work! - cold argon passes through the torch over the copper collet assembly and tungsten and takes most of the heat away. when you stop the current flow there's no more heat generated but if you're using 4t the argon will still flow and continue to remove heat. irrespective, some of the heat generated during the welding phase will have passed to the body of the torch but more gas will help remove this too (hold trigger without going near the workpiece)
if the torch is still getting too hot clamp the tungsten better, increase the gas supply or run more pre / post gas. if its still still getting too hot reduce your duty cycle, which is likely to be overheating the welder internals as well since most air cooled stuff is typically really only good for something like 30% duty cycle anyway. if you still can't get it cool enough then you have likely reached the semi pro / full pro point of needing a water cooled torch and different machine.
don't forget guys, the thread is about the OP getting a cheap intro to an AC/DC tig machine!
that's nonsense, of course it does - that's how they work! - cold argon passes through the torch over the copper collet assembly and tungsten and takes most of the heat away. when you stop the current flow there's no more heat generated but if you're using 4t the argon will still flow and continue to remove heat. irrespective, some of the heat generated during the welding phase will have passed to the body of the torch but more gas will help remove this too (hold trigger without going near the workpiece)
if the torch is still getting too hot clamp the tungsten better, increase the gas supply or run more pre / post gas. if its still still getting too hot reduce your duty cycle, which is likely to be overheating the welder internals as well since most air cooled stuff is typically really only good for something like 30% duty cycle anyway. if you still can't get it cool enough then you have likely reached the semi pro / full pro point of needing a water cooled torch and different machine.
don't forget guys, the thread is about the OP getting a cheap intro to an AC/DC tig machine!
Bollox. Blow on something roasting hot.....how much does your breath cool it ? Well that's how much the Argon will cool the torch.
It doesnt.
And reduce duty cycle ? Are you having a laugh ? Because that means stop welding lol.
cheaper machines have lower duty cycle - that's what you pay more for in a pro machine - what are you talking about FFS?
however, for the sake of the OP and other interested observers I'll clarify. lots of stuff is air-cooled inc early porsche engines or the motor in your vacuum cleaner or your microwave oven or an inter cooler or someone's sweaty palms as they enter garbage on here.
specifically in the case of welding equipment, the power devices in the welder's electronics create significant amounts of heat which they dissipate to their heat sinks which the cooling fans then remove to atmo. from a design standpoint, the ability to do this reliably would typically be considered within the overall envelope of heat management which includes the torch's ability to stay within its design limits and the whole calculation *is* the duty cycle of the whole machine.
I think I’m going to order the cheap one from rally design, at that price I can’t go wrong even if I have to replace it in a couple of years,
before I order it I need to figure out what regulator to get, the different filling rods and I have no idea on the tips etc so once my heads around that I will get it.
I will wait and see if I need a dedicated power socket Because I have literally just plastered the garage but I suppose I could swap one of the sockets.
does anyone have any recommendations to an online consumables shop?
that's nonsense, of course it does - that's how they work! - cold argon passes through the torch over the copper collet assembly and tungsten and takes most of the heat away. when you stop the current flow there's no more heat generated but if you're using 4t the argon will still flow and continue to remove heat. irrespective, some of the heat generated during the welding phase will have passed to the body of the torch but more gas will help remove this too (hold trigger without going near the workpiece)
if the torch is still getting too hot clamp the tungsten better, increase the gas supply or run more pre / post gas. if its still still getting too hot reduce your duty cycle, which is likely to be overheating the welder internals as well since most air cooled stuff is typically really only good for something like 30% duty cycle anyway. if you still can't get it cool enough then you have likely reached the semi pro / full pro point of needing a water cooled torch and different machine.
don't forget guys, the thread is about the OP getting a cheap intro to an AC/DC tig machine!
Lol - you need to spend some time with a TIG torch and not on the internet
cheaper machines have lower duty cycle - that's what you pay more for in a pro machine - what are you talking about FFS?
however, for the sake of the OP and other interested observers I'll clarify. lots of stuff is air-cooled inc early porsche engines or the motor in your vacuum cleaner or your microwave oven or an inter cooler or someone's sweaty palms as they enter garbage on here.
specifically in the case of welding equipment, the power devices in the welder's electronics create significant amounts of heat which they dissipate to their heat sinks which the cooling fans then remove to atmo. from a design standpoint, the ability to do this reliably would typically be considered within the overall envelope of heat management which includes the torch's ability to stay within its design limits and the whole calculation *is* the duty cycle of the whole machine.
If you've no clue what you're talking about...it's best just to not say anything at all.
From: it's not where you are, it's where you've been and where you hope to be
"If you've no clue what you're talking about...it's best just to not say anything at all"
-- Indeed -- but earlier in this thread you said
" Tungstens...haven't really a clue on that one". [no-one had mentioned tungsten but you decided to post to tell us that you hadn't a clue about something that no-one wanted to know about]
"Yes and no..... But in general, yes you are right"
"And if you blow on a hot iron....does it cool it down ?"
"Blow on something roasting hot.....how much does your breath cool it"
"If you've no clue what you're talking about...it's best just to not say anything at all"
-- Indeed -- but earlier in this thread you said
" Tungstens...haven't really a clue on that one". [no-one had mentioned tungsten but you decided to post to tell us that you hadn't a clue about something that no-one wanted to know about]
"Yes and no..... But in general, yes you are right"
"And if you blow on a hot iron....does it cool it down ?"
"Blow on something roasting hot.....how much does your breath cool it"
**verbal diarrhea**
It's actually hard to believe anyone would present themselves as stupid as you are doing. But hey....some just are. Maybe it's lockdown messing with your brain, maybe too much alcohol, who knows.
You've clearly never used a Tig welder and have no concept of how one works. D
So why bother posting ?
Tig welders. Bought rally design bargain one
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