Urgent mondeo fault code help please :)
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From: Middlesex
Urgent mondeo fault code help please :)
hi guys
Driving along, put foot down a bit to join motorway revs going up (2nd/3rd gear i think) bang on 3000rpm got a cluck and the turbo cut and the glow plug light started flashing, turned off and on again and went over 3000rpm and it hasnt happened again.
No smoke
slight wobble on idle.
notice it smelt funny when i got out for a few seconds not sure of what oil/diesel/buring clutch?
this car is a previous cat C write off, hit in rear on passenger side.
just had idle tensioner, belt and crank pulley replaced yesterday at the costs of £370
Fault code:
P0251 - Injection pump fuel metering control A malfunction (cam/rotor/injection)
also just to note that it didnt feel that different in limpmode so maybe whatever the issue is is also causing a performance issue.
also to note ive used supermarket fuel and my mechanic said yesterday that its possible thats causing the idle wobble and to try some shell, i put shell in on the way home tonight bout 10-15 miles before this happened?
Fault code:
P0251 - Injection pump fuel metering control A malfunction (cam/rotor/injection)
any help apreciated guys
Dave
Driving along, put foot down a bit to join motorway revs going up (2nd/3rd gear i think) bang on 3000rpm got a cluck and the turbo cut and the glow plug light started flashing, turned off and on again and went over 3000rpm and it hasnt happened again.
No smoke
slight wobble on idle.
notice it smelt funny when i got out for a few seconds not sure of what oil/diesel/buring clutch?
this car is a previous cat C write off, hit in rear on passenger side.
just had idle tensioner, belt and crank pulley replaced yesterday at the costs of £370
Fault code:
P0251 - Injection pump fuel metering control A malfunction (cam/rotor/injection)
also just to note that it didnt feel that different in limpmode so maybe whatever the issue is is also causing a performance issue.
also to note ive used supermarket fuel and my mechanic said yesterday that its possible thats causing the idle wobble and to try some shell, i put shell in on the way home tonight bout 10-15 miles before this happened?
Fault code:
P0251 - Injection pump fuel metering control A malfunction (cam/rotor/injection)
any help apreciated guys
Dave
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i must deal with easily 10 cars a week using shitty supermarket crap, making petrol cars lean and put lambda codes up even when there switching bang on, bringing cat fault codes up etc, diesels, same again. Lots of moisture in fuels now! Maby due to storage, geneticaly modified fuels?
take fuel filter off and empty contents onto (i use brown paper floor mats) something thats gonna show up shiny metal filings, this shows fuel pressure pump breaking up
otherwise injectors having poor performance/not injecting enough can cause pressure iregularitys.
even easyer could be rail pressure sensor faulty!
you need digital (diagnostic gear looking at ecu readings) output data
mechanical pressure data and spill off levels
i hate diesels
p.s why is throttle position 100%?????????
take fuel filter off and empty contents onto (i use brown paper floor mats) something thats gonna show up shiny metal filings, this shows fuel pressure pump breaking up
otherwise injectors having poor performance/not injecting enough can cause pressure iregularitys.
even easyer could be rail pressure sensor faulty!
you need digital (diagnostic gear looking at ecu readings) output data
mechanical pressure data and spill off levels
i hate diesels
p.s why is throttle position 100%?????????
Last edited by Cossie Sean; Feb 29, 2012 at 11:23 PM.
Thread Starter
15000
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From: Middlesex
I have no idea why its a 100%, real life it was probablly at 75% also engine load at 100% is a bit weird. my software gives me live data, what am I looking for.
any chance.this is just gona be a blocked fuel filter from using BG244 last month??
Dave
any chance.this is just gona be a blocked fuel filter from using BG244 last month??
Dave
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From: Middlesex
My mechanic is gona change over the fuel filter on Monday (I can't be arsed with re filling the new one and all that) I looked at the filter and it looks very old. So ill let you all know the results
this is happening to my step dads mondeo and he took the battery off for an hour and when re-conneted it reved the car at 3k for 5mins then drove it 4 30mins and seems better but not as lumpy as when he didnt do it can be expensive to repair aswell
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P0251 is a bad code to get unfortunately. It could be the fuel pump, the IMV, the injectors, or a host of other things. It's always fuelling related
I'd put money on it being nothing to do with supermarket fuel - and no amount of additives/posh fuels will cure a P0251 code. It's definitely worth changing the fuel filter and inspecting the contents of the filter chamber for metal fillings (as said above) If there are metal particles in there, it's the pump, and it's time to scrap the car, as you'll need to replace the pump, and clean out the lines/tank and probably replace the injectors.
My advice (based on extensive work on my Mondeo) would be to take it to a Delphi specialist (NOT a main dealer) and let them diagnose it. It's very very easy to chase your tail and spend a shit load on parts which make no difference at all. Get it diagnosed properly is by far the best advice I can give.
I'd put money on it being nothing to do with supermarket fuel - and no amount of additives/posh fuels will cure a P0251 code. It's definitely worth changing the fuel filter and inspecting the contents of the filter chamber for metal fillings (as said above) If there are metal particles in there, it's the pump, and it's time to scrap the car, as you'll need to replace the pump, and clean out the lines/tank and probably replace the injectors.
My advice (based on extensive work on my Mondeo) would be to take it to a Delphi specialist (NOT a main dealer) and let them diagnose it. It's very very easy to chase your tail and spend a shit load on parts which make no difference at all. Get it diagnosed properly is by far the best advice I can give.
PassionFord Post Troll
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From: ayrshire
If its near the battery it will have a icu ( injector control unit ) which is behind the bumper under pass headlight , check that for water as they can throw that code
Also if it went with a bang then usually that's the pump that goes and takes out injectors also!
But will hardly run after that if at all
After that you reall need to replace fuel tank to injectors !
Also if it went with a bang then usually that's the pump that goes and takes out injectors also!
But will hardly run after that if at all
After that you reall need to replace fuel tank to injectors !
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From: Middlesex
And again but not on overtake this time, it was on lift off/clutch down from 4th intending to go to fifth, still no smoke but it defiantly feels down on power, 1800-3000rpm seems like just a massive flat spot, even when restarted from limp mode ( although not as bad as when in limp mode)
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It's back any I've been told the injectors need removing and bench testing as the leak off test was not conclusive. The have changed airfilter an fuel filter and it is more poke. They checked some injector cleaner in but even if that clears it, it could still need re coding even if the cleaner clears
PassionFord Post Whore!!
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From: Lincs.
If the leak off test and fuel pressure tests were done properly, they should have been able to say "yay or nay", to the injectors/pump etc. I have been working on these TDCIs since they were introduced and never needed to send injectors away. Some info from another thread I answered on here :
On your diagnostics can you access live data from ECU?
To test the Fuel rail pressure, disconnect all the injector multi plugs and the inlet metering valve (brown plug on the 'pump') then crank for 5 secs. Fuel pressure should be 1600bar. It'll need 250 bar to start/idle with everything plugged in.
(with the IMV disconnected the pump should deliver it's maximum pressure)
Obviously you need to make sure the low pressure side is primed before doing this!
As others have said, hand primer on the filter normally works, I've never cracked off the injectors on a TDCI when trying to start it, never needed to. Surely that will draw air in..
If you have P0251 it could be a pump problem, but it could also be fault with injectors/air leaks/filter blocked/fuel pipes crimped.
With fuel low pressure side primed and fuel pressure tested, if the pressure is low you need to do a leak off test on the injectors.
(random google pic)
If you haven't got the fancy kit to test leak off, just get 4 EQUAL lengths of washer pipe that'll fit on the injector leak offs and 4 tubs/bottles/whatever that are transparent.
Again disconnect the injectors and inlet metering valve, and 5 sec crank and check if fuel is present in any of the hoses, if one has a load of fuel in, there's your faulty injector that is losing your fuel pressure!
If you can get it started, you can run it with the leak offs into the containers and run it for a minute to see how your leak offs compare.
When Transits and Mondeos had all the injector problems we had to ring Ford prior approval to get them to authorise the replacement under warranty, proper ball ache having to go through the results of all of the above, plus compression test results...
Ford prior approval : "whats your 1 min run test leak off quantity"
GVK - "Haven't done one"
Ford prior approval "Why not?"
GVK - "It fills the bottle in 30 secs, If I run it for a minute it'll piss diesel on the floor!
Ford prior approval "Oh, errr, I see - fit an injector in that cylinder then.."
To test the Fuel rail pressure, disconnect all the injector multi plugs and the inlet metering valve (brown plug on the 'pump') then crank for 5 secs. Fuel pressure should be 1600bar. It'll need 250 bar to start/idle with everything plugged in.
(with the IMV disconnected the pump should deliver it's maximum pressure)
Obviously you need to make sure the low pressure side is primed before doing this!
As others have said, hand primer on the filter normally works, I've never cracked off the injectors on a TDCI when trying to start it, never needed to. Surely that will draw air in..
If you have P0251 it could be a pump problem, but it could also be fault with injectors/air leaks/filter blocked/fuel pipes crimped.
With fuel low pressure side primed and fuel pressure tested, if the pressure is low you need to do a leak off test on the injectors.
(random google pic)
If you haven't got the fancy kit to test leak off, just get 4 EQUAL lengths of washer pipe that'll fit on the injector leak offs and 4 tubs/bottles/whatever that are transparent.
Again disconnect the injectors and inlet metering valve, and 5 sec crank and check if fuel is present in any of the hoses, if one has a load of fuel in, there's your faulty injector that is losing your fuel pressure!
If you can get it started, you can run it with the leak offs into the containers and run it for a minute to see how your leak offs compare.
When Transits and Mondeos had all the injector problems we had to ring Ford prior approval to get them to authorise the replacement under warranty, proper ball ache having to go through the results of all of the above, plus compression test results...
Ford prior approval : "whats your 1 min run test leak off quantity"
GVK - "Haven't done one"
Ford prior approval "Why not?"
GVK - "It fills the bottle in 30 secs, If I run it for a minute it'll piss diesel on the floor!
Ford prior approval "Oh, errr, I see - fit an injector in that cylinder then.."
PassionFord Post Whore!!
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From: Lincs.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
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From: Lincs.
This link explains the process in more detail than I did -
http://www.justanswer.com/uk-ford/5i...anagement.html
Crank the engine for 5 seconds while observing the fuel pressure you should see a minimum of 1050 bar, if the pressure exceeds 1050 bar refit all the connectors and remove the leak off bottles.
Start the engine and warm up then refit the bottles, run the engine for 1 minute and check the bottles all the amounts should be the same, if any bottle is significantly higher this will need the injector replaced. If the amounts are all similar run the engine for for minutes after this measure the fuel in the bottles. Use the lowest amount and times this by 1.4 this gives the maximum volume allowed if any injector exceeds this try to input the correction value and retest also make sure the engine management software is up to date.
If on the 5 second crank the fuel pressure is lower than 1050 bar check the amount of fuel in the tubes to the bottles,Do one or more clear plastic hoses contain no fuel and one or more have a recorded value greater than 20 cm in length?
If yes Install new fuel injectors for those injectors with recorded values of greater than 20 cm. Retest Do all of the clear plastic hoses contain fuel? Yes assemble the vehicle. test the system for normal operation. No install new fuel injectors for those injectors with no fuel present in the clear plastic hoses.
If after the original test the answer is no then do all of the clear plastic hoses contain fuel and one or more have a recorded value greater than 20 cm in length? Yes install new fuel injectors for recorded values greater than 20 cm. If the answer is no, Are all of the recorded values less than 20 cm and one or more clear plastic hoses contain no fuel? Yes install new fuel injectors for those injectors with no fuel contained within the clear plastic hose. If no install a new fuel pump.
Crank the engine for 5 seconds while observing the fuel pressure you should see a minimum of 1050 bar, if the pressure exceeds 1050 bar refit all the connectors and remove the leak off bottles.
Start the engine and warm up then refit the bottles, run the engine for 1 minute and check the bottles all the amounts should be the same, if any bottle is significantly higher this will need the injector replaced. If the amounts are all similar run the engine for for minutes after this measure the fuel in the bottles. Use the lowest amount and times this by 1.4 this gives the maximum volume allowed if any injector exceeds this try to input the correction value and retest also make sure the engine management software is up to date.
If on the 5 second crank the fuel pressure is lower than 1050 bar check the amount of fuel in the tubes to the bottles,Do one or more clear plastic hoses contain no fuel and one or more have a recorded value greater than 20 cm in length?
If yes Install new fuel injectors for those injectors with recorded values of greater than 20 cm. Retest Do all of the clear plastic hoses contain fuel? Yes assemble the vehicle. test the system for normal operation. No install new fuel injectors for those injectors with no fuel present in the clear plastic hoses.
If after the original test the answer is no then do all of the clear plastic hoses contain fuel and one or more have a recorded value greater than 20 cm in length? Yes install new fuel injectors for recorded values greater than 20 cm. If the answer is no, Are all of the recorded values less than 20 cm and one or more clear plastic hoses contain no fuel? Yes install new fuel injectors for those injectors with no fuel contained within the clear plastic hose. If no install a new fuel pump.
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From: Middlesex
Ok, my mechanic said the fuel pump is fine, he said the leak off test showed nothing and the diesel specialist would like to bench test them as he (like most people) jump straight to injectors, I'm not denying that its not them but just feel other stuff should be looked at first.£100 just to bench test injectors.....
What actually is the issue with the injectors, what physically happens to them???
So I'm ok to try a new one. If it works do I need to replace the pipes too???
What actually is the issue with the injectors, what physically happens to them???
So I'm ok to try a new one. If it works do I need to replace the pipes too???
PassionFord Post Whore!!
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From: Lincs.
It's a fault with a valve inside the injector that lets the fuel return to the tank. (aka leak off or leak back)
Hence if excess 'leak off' you get reduced fuel rail pressure, which flags up a code in the ECU.
I would get high pressure pipes replaced when you eventually get the injectors done
Hence if excess 'leak off' you get reduced fuel rail pressure, which flags up a code in the ECU.
I would get high pressure pipes replaced when you eventually get the injectors done
Last edited by GVK.; Mar 5, 2012 at 10:14 PM.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
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The leak-off and pressure tests can be inconclusive. Mine was 'fine' according to the simple tests but in reality the injectors were shot. The ONLY way we found out was by having them correctly bench tested by Delphi. Apparently they test something like 80 parameters!
A Delphi agent will also be able to test the IMV at the same time to see if that's at fault. (it is a likely candidate in my experience)
It does seem very expensive just to test the parts - but the alternative is to spend even more on swapping parts 'on a hunch'. With TDCIs it's always wise to get a proper diagnosis before buying random components - believe me, as I've been there, done that, and fitted several very expensive t-shirts!!!
A Delphi agent will also be able to test the IMV at the same time to see if that's at fault. (it is a likely candidate in my experience)
It does seem very expensive just to test the parts - but the alternative is to spend even more on swapping parts 'on a hunch'. With TDCIs it's always wise to get a proper diagnosis before buying random components - believe me, as I've been there, done that, and fitted several very expensive t-shirts!!!
Thread Starter
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From: Middlesex
Thread Starter
15000
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Middlesex
The leak-off and pressure tests can be inconclusive. Mine was 'fine' according to the simple tests but in reality the injectors were shot. The ONLY way we found out was by having them correctly bench tested by Delphi. Apparently they test something like 80 parameters!
A Delphi agent will also be able to test the IMV at the same time to see if that's at fault. (it is a likely candidate in my experience)
It does seem very expensive just to test the parts - but the alternative is to spend even more on swapping parts 'on a hunch'. With TDCIs it's always wise to get a proper diagnosis before buying random components - believe me, as I've been there, done that, and fitted several very expensive t-shirts!!!
A Delphi agent will also be able to test the IMV at the same time to see if that's at fault. (it is a likely candidate in my experience)
It does seem very expensive just to test the parts - but the alternative is to spend even more on swapping parts 'on a hunch'. With TDCIs it's always wise to get a proper diagnosis before buying random components - believe me, as I've been there, done that, and fitted several very expensive t-shirts!!!
Does it have an electronic EGR valve? i.e. are there wires going to it, or just a vac hose? If it's got electric gubbins it's a Euro4 engine, so won't have a separate injector driver module. It's the earlier Euro3 engines that did.
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From: Middlesex
There is a vac hose from memory I'm fairly sure there is a plug on it aswell but ill have to check. I'm gussing as no one has mentioned it, that's its not the ECU update that's required ???
The ECU updates are generally very minor and won't fix any major problems. It's also utterly fucking criminal that Ford expect you to pay for ECU updates (Up to £80 in some instances) for errors they're made with their software. Out of principal I refuse to have the ECU updated unless it's free.
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From: Middlesex
If it's just got vac lines and NO electrical connectors, then it will have a separate ICU behind the bumper.
The ECU updates are generally very minor and won't fix any major problems. It's also utterly fucking criminal that Ford expect you to pay for ECU updates (Up to £80 in some instances) for errors they're made with their software. Out of principal I refuse to have the ECU updated unless it's free.
The ECU updates are generally very minor and won't fix any major problems. It's also utterly fucking criminal that Ford expect you to pay for ECU updates (Up to £80 in some instances) for errors they're made with their software. Out of principal I refuse to have the ECU updated unless it's free.
Don't even get me started on Ford an us having to pay for their mistakes like the crank pulley I just had done at cost of £370....
I'm gona have a.crack at re codding the injectors using formidable if I can, not to solve the issue more to get used to the software so I can put the new injectors in myself lol