Urgent mondeo fault code help please :)
06-03-2012, 05:51 PM
#41
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Make sure you can read the injector codes off the injectors themselves, and compare to the sticker if still fitted, no idea on your software as never used it but on IDS (Ford dealer tool) the correction factors are inputted in firing order.
injector 1 (cyl 1)
injector 2 (cyl 3)
injector 3 (cyl 4)
injector 4 (cyl 2)
If your software shows fuel pressure actual and fuel pressure desired in graphical form, ideally when the car is going to fault - log both these parameters and you should see if and where it's losing fuel pressure. Both the graphs should be pretty much identical.
injector 1 (cyl 1)
injector 2 (cyl 3)
injector 3 (cyl 4)
injector 4 (cyl 2)
If your software shows fuel pressure actual and fuel pressure desired in graphical form, ideally when the car is going to fault - log both these parameters and you should see if and where it's losing fuel pressure. Both the graphs should be pretty much identical.
07-03-2012, 09:12 AM
#42
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Right I checked and it does have a cable on the egr so I gusse its a euro4 engine. Don't know if this helps diagnose the issue.
This weekend ill reset the ECU and see if that does anything, no got my hopes too high though.
I'm gona have a play with formidable aswell. Seeing as I have a Euro4 it should work for recoding the injectors all though I think ill need a different lead.
Also need to do a leak off test myself just to double check ...
Cheers for all your help guys.
This weekend ill reset the ECU and see if that does anything, no got my hopes too high though.
I'm gona have a play with formidable aswell. Seeing as I have a Euro4 it should work for recoding the injectors all though I think ill need a different lead.
Also need to do a leak off test myself just to double check ...
Cheers for all your help guys.
07-03-2012, 10:46 AM
#43
Right I checked and it does have a cable on the egr so I gusse its a euro4 engine. Don't know if this helps diagnose the issue.
This weekend ill reset the ECU and see if that does anything, no got my hopes too high though.
I'm gona have a play with formidable aswell. Seeing as I have a Euro4 it should work for recoding the injectors all though I think ill need a different lead.
Also need to do a leak off test myself just to double check ...
Cheers for all your help guys.
This weekend ill reset the ECU and see if that does anything, no got my hopes too high though.
I'm gona have a play with formidable aswell. Seeing as I have a Euro4 it should work for recoding the injectors all though I think ill need a different lead.
Also need to do a leak off test myself just to double check ...
Cheers for all your help guys.
If I'm honest I'd expect a P0251 to be pump based (IMV) rather than injectors. Not saying it can't be, but when an injector's 'goosed' it often (but not always) flags up an 'above knock threshold' code.
07-03-2012, 11:16 AM
#44
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Yer I thought that too, I am wondering about the pump but there were no metal bits in the filter.
There are no other signs of injector issues but the glow plugs take a while to warm but I don't know if that's normal on a diesel.( when I say take a while I mean ignition on, seatbelts on wait 2 seconds after putting seatbelts on)
There are no other signs of injector issues but the glow plugs take a while to warm but I don't know if that's normal on a diesel.( when I say take a while I mean ignition on, seatbelts on wait 2 seconds after putting seatbelts on)
07-03-2012, 05:13 PM
#46
PassionFord Post Whore!!
P0251 basically means that the fuel pressure actual is different than fuel pressure desired.
Easiest way to test the pump and IMV is to disconnect the injectors multi-plugs and IMV, add leak off test kit and datalog fuel pressure during a 5 sec crank. Their spec is greater than 1050bar, a good pump/IMV will produce ~1600 bar. If it does, the pump is fine.
By adding the leak off test kit during this test, you are checking if there is excess leak off from any injectors when the pump is supplying the rail with high pressure. If there is fuel present in the pipes during the 5 sec crank it's not looking good for that injector. (I'm wondering if the garage checking Zemon's car did this test?)
I have been working on a Focus TDCI today with Delphi system, it has severe lack of power/smoking/knocking on accel. No DTCs to give me a clue, road tested & datalogged FRP vs FRP_DSD and difference is up to 80-90bar difference on accel when it's faulting. So carried out above tests and have found 3 injectors out of spec.
During 5 sec crank the injectors in cyl 3+4 had 15cm on fuel in them, vs about 5cm in cyl 1 and 9cm in cyl 2.
Results from 1 min and 4 min leak off test at idle confirmed that the injectors in cyl 2+3+4 are leaking off excess fuel, thus losing fuel pressure on accel.
07-03-2012, 05:15 PM
#47
PassionFord Post Whore!!
07-03-2012, 05:54 PM
#48
PassionFord Post Whore!!
From the PDF I posted a link to earlier in the thread.
If you follow the above you should be able to rule out your pump.
P0251 (Fuel metering valve (IMV) control error)
Symptoms:
* Extremely poor engine performance - glow plug warning lamp flashes.
* Engine cuts out - glow plug warning lamp flashes.
* Engine will not start.
Cause:
* The fuel rail pressure demanded by the system cannot be achieved without the IMV opening
beyond the tolerance specified for that pressure.
• NOTE:The fault descriptions listed below should be worked through in order.
1. Restriction in the low-pressure fuel system, which could be caused by a blockage of a fuel line
or the fuel filter, or a damaged fuel line.
2. Air in the low-pressure system: Check using transparent hoses or remote feed the fuel injection
pump with a filtered proprietary fuel supply to eliminate the vehicle low-pressure fuel system
entirely. Leaking fuel lines or connections can cause air in fuel.
• NOTE:When using transparent hoses a small amount of air in the fuel system is normal due to a
permanent bleed hole in the fuel filter.
Recirculation of fuel will occur through the fuel filter until the temperature of the return fuel is over
40°C (hence any air in the system will re-circulate until the fuel is above 40°C and is being
returned to the fuel tank).
3. Faulty fuel injection pump, transfer pump part, or pressure control valve. Fuel injection pump
internal transfer pressure needs to be at least 6 bar to achieve high pressure chamber filling (to
generate the required fuel rail pressure). Check the following (if the engine does not start):
• Remote feed the fuel injection pump with a filtered, proprietary fuel supply.
If the engine will start when the fuel supply is pressurized or held above the fuel injection pump
intake (gravity fed), but will not start when the fuel supply is not pressurized or held below the fuel
injection pump intake then it is likely that there is a fault with the internal transfer pump (i.e. not
able to draw fuel).
4. Faulty fuel injection pump - high-pressure part or inlet metering valve (IMV):
• Carry out a guided fuel pressure test diagnosis.
(symptom "No engine start" or "Poor driveability").
CAUTION: Do not crank the engine for more than 5 seconds. The fuel injection pump will be
damaged with long or repeated cranking and no transfer pressure.
• Check the fuel pressure (with the ignition ON, engine OFF) (it should fluctuate between 4 and
10 bar maximum). If a default fuel pressure of 2000 bar is displayed then there is an electrical
fault on the fuel pressure sensor (connector, wiring etc.).
• Check the fuel pressure at the moment the engine starts (target value = 300 bar ą 50 bar).
• Check the fuel pressure at idling (target value = 250 bar ą 40 bar).
5. Injectors:
• Perform a return quantity test. If high return quantities are experienced, check a sample of fuel
from the FIP return for black metallic swarf . Go to the next step.
6. Swarf in the system:
• Despite improved materials it is possible there may be swarf in the system, without the fuel
injection pump being defective.
Symptoms:
* Extremely poor engine performance - glow plug warning lamp flashes.
* Engine cuts out - glow plug warning lamp flashes.
* Engine will not start.
Cause:
* The fuel rail pressure demanded by the system cannot be achieved without the IMV opening
beyond the tolerance specified for that pressure.
• NOTE:The fault descriptions listed below should be worked through in order.
1. Restriction in the low-pressure fuel system, which could be caused by a blockage of a fuel line
or the fuel filter, or a damaged fuel line.
2. Air in the low-pressure system: Check using transparent hoses or remote feed the fuel injection
pump with a filtered proprietary fuel supply to eliminate the vehicle low-pressure fuel system
entirely. Leaking fuel lines or connections can cause air in fuel.
• NOTE:When using transparent hoses a small amount of air in the fuel system is normal due to a
permanent bleed hole in the fuel filter.
Recirculation of fuel will occur through the fuel filter until the temperature of the return fuel is over
40°C (hence any air in the system will re-circulate until the fuel is above 40°C and is being
returned to the fuel tank).
3. Faulty fuel injection pump, transfer pump part, or pressure control valve. Fuel injection pump
internal transfer pressure needs to be at least 6 bar to achieve high pressure chamber filling (to
generate the required fuel rail pressure). Check the following (if the engine does not start):
• Remote feed the fuel injection pump with a filtered, proprietary fuel supply.
If the engine will start when the fuel supply is pressurized or held above the fuel injection pump
intake (gravity fed), but will not start when the fuel supply is not pressurized or held below the fuel
injection pump intake then it is likely that there is a fault with the internal transfer pump (i.e. not
able to draw fuel).
4. Faulty fuel injection pump - high-pressure part or inlet metering valve (IMV):
• Carry out a guided fuel pressure test diagnosis.
(symptom "No engine start" or "Poor driveability").
CAUTION: Do not crank the engine for more than 5 seconds. The fuel injection pump will be
damaged with long or repeated cranking and no transfer pressure.
• Check the fuel pressure (with the ignition ON, engine OFF) (it should fluctuate between 4 and
10 bar maximum). If a default fuel pressure of 2000 bar is displayed then there is an electrical
fault on the fuel pressure sensor (connector, wiring etc.).
• Check the fuel pressure at the moment the engine starts (target value = 300 bar ą 50 bar).
• Check the fuel pressure at idling (target value = 250 bar ą 40 bar).
5. Injectors:
• Perform a return quantity test. If high return quantities are experienced, check a sample of fuel
from the FIP return for black metallic swarf . Go to the next step.
6. Swarf in the system:
• Despite improved materials it is possible there may be swarf in the system, without the fuel
injection pump being defective.
Last edited by GVK.; 07-03-2012 at 06:02 PM.
07-03-2012, 07:16 PM
#49
I had four brand new ones fitted less than two years ago, and already another's died (this time thankfully with a 'knock' fault code, so I know which one it is).
I've got to fit the injector and code it in tomorrow.
What's the best way to 'bleed' the injectors? Crack the pipes and turn it over till fuel comes out? Or should they 'self bleed'?
Last edited by DanW@FastFord; 07-03-2012 at 07:21 PM.
07-03-2012, 07:24 PM
#50
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Should self-bleed, I never crank them with the pipes loose.
Try and block the leak off when you disconnect it as if you let in too much air on the low pressure side you'll need to prime it with a hand primer on the filter.
The Focus I mentioned has been elsewhere before coming to the main dealer, and had a new Turbo and MAF, probably didn't need them..
Try and block the leak off when you disconnect it as if you let in too much air on the low pressure side you'll need to prime it with a hand primer on the filter.
The Focus I mentioned has been elsewhere before coming to the main dealer, and had a new Turbo and MAF, probably didn't need them..
Last edited by GVK.; 07-03-2012 at 07:34 PM.
07-03-2012, 07:49 PM
#51
Should self-bleed, I never crank them with the pipes loose.
Try and block the leak off when you disconnect it as if you let in too much air on the low pressure side you'll need to prime it with a hand primer on the filter.
The Focus I mentioned has been elsewhere before coming to the main dealer, and had a new Turbo and MAF, probably didn't need them..
Try and block the leak off when you disconnect it as if you let in too much air on the low pressure side you'll need to prime it with a hand primer on the filter.
The Focus I mentioned has been elsewhere before coming to the main dealer, and had a new Turbo and MAF, probably didn't need them..
08-03-2012, 07:05 AM
#53
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Agreed. I had three injectors which were knackered. It made the car really down on performance, but no fault codes, inconclusive leak off test results, and I ended up swapping the turbo, intercooler, and removed the cat, and EGR plus hours of other checks. I only found it was the injectors when they went on a Delphi test rig.
I had four brand new ones fitted less than two years ago, and already another's died (this time thankfully with a 'knock' fault code, so I know which one it is).
I've got to fit the injector and code it in tomorrow.
What's the best way to 'bleed' the injectors? Crack the pipes and turn it over till fuel comes out? Or should they 'self bleed'?
I had four brand new ones fitted less than two years ago, and already another's died (this time thankfully with a 'knock' fault code, so I know which one it is).
I've got to fit the injector and code it in tomorrow.
What's the best way to 'bleed' the injectors? Crack the pipes and turn it over till fuel comes out? Or should they 'self bleed'?
08-03-2012, 09:14 AM
#54
I'll be sticking to Asda fuel from now on!!
Luckily I called in some favours and I've got a free injector and borrowed the proper Delphi kit to code it in!
08-03-2012, 09:42 AM
#55
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Fuel is a funny issue and everyone has their own opinions, but Asda and esso is the same fuel. I have been told shell is the best for mondeos so ill stick with shell for now. But it is funny that you use Asda/esso and have injector issues and everyone that has issues with injectors say they use either supermarket fuel, esso or Texaco. Yet if anyone says this its thrown out immediatley.
08-03-2012, 04:49 PM
#56
I genuinely don't think that any particular brand is worse than any other - they all have to pass stringent regulations. You can get contaminated batches, but I'm not going to change my buying habits.
It's much more likely to be contamination from the pump causing issues. The pumps are well known for 'breaking down' and sending particles through the system.
It's much more likely to be contamination from the pump causing issues. The pumps are well known for 'breaking down' and sending particles through the system.
18-03-2012, 07:40 AM
#57
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Right so I cleaned the electrical connectors to the injectors and found one broken and one will a seal broken sp they'll need replacing. Also bland of the egr because when I sucked on the vac pipe nothing happened, this worked for a couple minutes then it started running rough again.
Checked fuel lines but it was too dark by then, when I lifted the black rubber cover under the rear seat I notices it didn't sit right, it stand of diesel and everything is right up against the whole so you can't get to anything, is this normal???
Checked fuel lines but it was too dark by then, when I lifted the black rubber cover under the rear seat I notices it didn't sit right, it stand of diesel and everything is right up against the whole so you can't get to anything, is this normal???
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