Hi, i've just brought a ford mondeo tdci 130 ps, and I have a few issues and wondering if anyone could shed some light on them, when idling the car runs quite rough at times but other times it will be fine (typically it was fine on the test drive) basically as I said it idles rough, also at high revs the glowplug light comes on and it goes into limp mode (doesnt cut out) I had the fault codes read and it come back with p0251.

I was wondering what this is likely to be, I notice I still have the old type (black) cam sensor and I was wondering if the cam sensor would cause this code or not and what else it could be.

Any help would be much appricated.

Luke

 

and just to add the car doesnt always go into limp mode at high revs, again on the test drive it was fine as I gave it a good test (spent most of the drive on the redline) as I knew this was a common problem with these cars. also I it does need a new crank pulley as it is quite noisey 95% sure its not the DMF as its not coming from the gearbox side and there isnt a change when clutch is depressed, i'm not sure if this can be related to the rough idle??

 

P0251 - Injection Pump Fuel Metering Control "A" (Cam/Rotor/Injector)
Also see: http://www.dtcsearch.com/P0251/
Timing problem or rpm measurement on injection pump defective.

 

Holy thread revival Batman, but why not, tis the same problem how the hell have Ford gotten away with every common failure being the most expensive bits and also failing prematurely with sooo many cars and not been held to account about it ?? mines just over 6 years old if it were under Ide have em on the sale of goods act (unfit for purpose)

 

^^ dude, use your enter button once in a while, that's hard to read.

P0251 generally relates to injectors, do a search on here there's LOADS of threads about it.

What year is yours? Is it the later one with the motorised EGR?

 

My reply to another thread,saves me retyping it all.

https://passionford.com/forum/genera...not-start.html

 

I guess im old school with the enter button

 

If you had CPS/CMP fault it would log a DTC - usually if cam sensor fails it cuts out completely as PCM sees 'no engine sync' ,they modified the cam sensor to a grey one, originals are black, not sure of year.

Yeh, spill test ideally should show up your injector fault.

 

the P0251 code does suggest, cam/rotor/injector, IIRC my cam sensor is a black one.

 

P0251 is a fuelling issue, not cam sensor. I can't remember the exact code without looking but it will give a dedicated cam sensor code if that's the problem. Also if a cam sensor fails it won't re-start immediately, leave it 10mins or so and it will start.

 

Perhaps one injector has really thrown in the towel.

 

Volvo engine? These aren't a Volvo engine as far as I'm aware, the later 'DW' engine that are Ford/PAS (French *spits*) were used in Volvos also. Your engine is the 'Puma' engine, were used in Mondeo,Transit,X type, Fiat Ducato,LDV vans amongst others.

Leak off test needs doing and fuel pressure tests as I've posted above. More than likely your fuel pressure is dropping on high load situations then PCM is shutting off fuelling.

 

Well if its French then it sucks even more than I thought it did I knew the focus tdci was a french connection, I am impressed on how well it performs and its mpg return when driven like a nun

 

Just did a wiki .... its a joint french effort lmao, can see why now its bits are so expensive.

 

P0251 isn't anything to do with the cam sensor.

 

Is there a hand priming pump or bulb anywhere or is it prefill the filter first to save messing about ??

 

Ok so its running again, dunno why, went out to try again and it fired right up, gave it a blast around the block to try and recreate the symptom, which it did, went into limp mode, then cut out, fuel pressure was ok till it cut out (at a guess 4000 psi, I was driving) then showed 87 psi keeping it it rolling and flicked the key off/on normal again.

Pushing it as much as I dare down the lane it got up to 18000 + psi, dont know if this is too high or not but it does look about right at a guess

Got it into limp mode again, drove home and its idling nicely now, restarted it and its all ok with a nice idle, weird.

Codes are ...

P1211, Injector control pressure Higher/Lower than desired
P2291, Injector control pressure Too low - Engine cranking

The fuel pressure is holding with the engine off, so will check this again tomorrow to see if any of the injectors are leaking down.

 

You need to be checking the fuel pressure when it's NOT RUNNING, with the injectors and fuel metering valve (IMV) brown plug on the pump disconnected.

With the IMV disconnected the pump should deliver 1600bar pressure (f*ck knows what that is in psi!) Needs around 250bar to start/run.

If you have excess leak off the fuel pressure won't be 1600bar, more like 1000-1200bar if 1 or 2 injectors are fecked.

Another thing worth doing is disconnect the return to the filter briefly and drain some fuel into a cup or something, see if any metal particles floating around.

 

1600bar is about 231999 psi

So 4000psi is only 275 bar.

 

Thanks for the conversion!

 

Am I correct in thinking that the fuel pump can + or - the fuel pressure as requested by the information given by the sensor on the rail. So if one or more injectors are dumping or returning more fuel than needed the pressure in the rail will drop causing the pump to max out what it can give but the pressure still drops below its values then sets the above code?

 

I know kpa, bar or psi lol, one box says one and the pc says the other, Ill see if I can get them both to read the same.

 

Yeah, as far as I'm aware that's correct. I know they need 250bar to start/run/idle any less and it won't start and throw those codes. Same if it's running, PCM requires x amount of fuel desired and if the injectors are leaking off excess amounts the fuel pressure desired/actual won't match and in worst cases will shut fuel off and that's obviously when it conks out. We normally road test with Ford IDS datalogging fuel pressure desired/actual on the PCMs that support it.

Sometimes when the IDS is updated they take away some of the available things to log on some models which is a pain in the twat.

 

Knock off two zero's or numbers to convert Kpa to Bar so 25000 Kpa is 250 Bar

 

Next job, leak-off tests!!

 

Yes that is the next plan, fitted a new filter, still wouldnt run, so me being me with my train of thoughts pulled off no2 injector plug and it fired right up, then did the old tried and trusted pull two plugs off (1 and 4) cut straight out, so its defo either 3 or 2 or both.

 

Havent gotten around to doing a leak test yet so doing some snagging jobs.

 

Head bashing time again

 

Did you block off the existing leak offs when you did the leak off tests?

Sounds like you've got massive leak offs even so...

 

Yeup, blocked off.

 

Had more joy when I nailed jelly to a tree.

 

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and have been reading with interest the thread about this fault code.
My car has the same problem, I'm beginning to fear that it just means that the engine is a bad construction, on the other hand I cannot understand that if that was the case, FORD would have sold so many of them...

When driving in the city or country roads I do not seem to have the problem (constant changes in RPM), only when on the highway and especially after quite some time on cruise control, when I then need to slow down for a moment and I just press resume on the cruise control to go back from about 100 to 120 the glow plug light begins to flash, the power drops and before I even reach the emergency lane at the right the engine has already stopped running. Contact off, on again and it starts (although sometimes with some effort), then I have to launch, give some power of course to fade in with the traffic and then....AGAIN the same. This car is realy unsafe. I have tried in manual (I have an AT 5 speed) and when I drive on cruise controll I just sometimes push him in 4, and then back in 5 to avoid the same RPM too long. It helps a bit, but not realy.

I had the fuel filter replaced by a new one, the residue that came out of the old one contained slimy things (probably because a certain percentage of diesel needs to be BIO diesel in Belgium (so I've been told)) and also water.

In a couple of days I will again check the stuff that comes out of the fuel filter. The mechanic in my dealer ship fears that a complete cleaning of the entire fuel system (tank and all) might be necessary when we see the same stuff again in the extract from the fuel filter fluid...

I bought this car second hand (from a private person) and my dealer also informed me that all 4 nozzles are new ones and that the EGR inlet is closed. So I suppose I bought the misery from someone else. Can somebody make me wiser why the former owner would have closed the EGR inlet? What is the (expected) advantage of this? My dealer wasn't sure why but told me that this would not cause the problem because it still is the engine with a vacuum system (don't ask me further explanation about this because I'm only a poor user not a mechanic)

Realy regret this problem because for the rest the car is a dream, full option, spacy etc. (and nice looking but this of course is subjective)

I wonder why the EGR is closed and whether that could cause the problems I have?

thanks in advance for feedback,

brgds,

Dirk

 

Dont worry to much about the EGR valve being blocked off (closed) alot of people do this as it can get gummed up with soot and jams open so you lose power.

 

Thank you sto6enc for your clarification, it is always good to hear a second opinion with regards to the EGR.
Also the advice for handling the diesel bug: I'll Google that and see where it leads me.
I suppose the product will not be different for a marine diesel than for a passenger car diesel?
Will post again when we've done the second check of the fuel filter.
brgds,
Dirk

 

OK, I've Googled Diesel Bug and indeed found only information with regards to marine diesels (like I assumed from sto6enc's reply).
I've read a test of 10 of these products and Marine 16 Diesel Bug Treatment came out best (test is here: http://www.marine16.co.uk/acatalog/d..._pbo_test1.pdf )
According to test: Not only kills it the bug but also breaks the bug up in order for the dead remains to pass through the filter.
I have now two questions:
1. in marine they talk a lot about 8 micron filters, in passengar cars I believe the standard is 2 micron, so much more intens filtration. Will it do the job? (I understand that all (or almost all) replies to this question will be without guarantee, but the more opinions the better.)
2. Is this product (based on Biocides) safe for a passengar car diesel engine? (same remark as with question 1)
I'll also ask my dealer tomorrow when I find the time, meanwhile would appreciate every feedback on above questions.
Again: thank you in advance,
brgds,
Dirk

 

I really don't think any 'bug' is to blame.

The Delphi system on the Mk3 is fantastic when it works - but it is very fragile, and when it's problematic it is VERY problematic.

First thing to do is to get the fault codes read. If you're unlucky you'll just get some generic codes such as P0251, and P1211. If you're lucky it will pinpoint the fault.

Please don't add any additives to the tank. They will not cure your problem.

 

Dirk DM did say that

 

Dear all,
All replies are welcome to me and I do not intend, nor will I, to keep anybody liable in whatever respect for his or her replies.
To me the more opinions I receive the better because they all contribute to my discussions with the dealer ship and give me more insight in the possible causes of my unfortunate issues.
So to set things straight: I thank you both for your input, I just want my car to be running as it was built to be.
To answer one question: no, unfortunately the new filter did not solve my problems, still go in low power run and soon afterwards in complete shut down.
I hope I did not start any bad feelings in this discussion, because that is the last I want, just want my problem solved and the more opinions I get, the better I am informed when discussing with my dealer the next steps, so both replies are very valuable for me. Thank you.
I will check the filter this weekend for any residual stuff and will report back.
thanks,
Dirk

 

No you havent caused any problems or bad feelings, opinions vary and hopefully result in good discussions and hopefully lead to fixing your car as well as mine, by the way adding diesel fuel treatment for bug will not harm your engine, its no different to adding redex or something similar to clean your fuel system/injectors.

As your filter change did not fix your problem which is the same as me then you will need to be looking further into your problem as Dan W has suggested, your mechanic will need to access the stored codes within the ecu, an obd2 reader will only read generic codes not the hidden ford ones (if there are any stored) which will be more usefull in diagnosing the problem.

From what you describe it does sound like a fuelling issue (pump/injectors/metering valve/possible restriction in the fuel delivery pipe) or it could be a turbo boost problem (split hose etc) but without seeing stored codes or viewing live data when the engine is running or trying to start, you wont really know where to start looking first.

 

Well the Injectors arrived today so I set about fitting them.