Sorry to start another thread, but after that one was closed I realised I had another query about the Piracy thing, if I want to sell copies of aftermarket chips on here, and I register as a PF trader, am I allowed to do so?

From what I gather from the previous post, thats perfectly ok within the forum rules, as obviously there has never been a court case where these companies have prosecuted someone for copyright infringement for selling copies of their chips, and they obviously arent about to start such a case as they are on such shakey ground themselves as they stole the original sourcecode that they make their chips from.
So potentially this also falls into the "its legal cause its never been proved it isnt" grey area that aftermarket chips themselves fall into in the first place?

So would that be ok to PF rules then?


The chips im thinking of specifically are for the vauxhall C20LET engine, as my mate knocks these out at 50 quid a throw, they are copies of EDS chips.

But obviously I could branch out into L8 chips etc too potentially later on

 

Not trying to make any friends then in the tuning scene?

 

I just want straight answers not friends, friendships arent made or lost by posts on a forum IMHO!

ICBA will all that nonsense, just think that we should all know exactly where we stand with things on the new forum rules etc, and clearly lots of people arent sure yet, so Im doing my bit to try and help clarify it.

Plus like I said, I have a mate with a chip copier who I am sure would be over the moon if he is allowed to sell his copied chips on here as its a big market for the vauxhall and ford scene in particular as so many people on here have a YB or a LET engine etc!

And at 50 quid a throw, instead of several times that, its great value for the forum users too!

 

I'd be interested in a LET chip, Chip!

 

As long as you and we are sure that you aren't infringing anyones copyright and are not blatantly selling direct copies of another companies chips and they complain about it then I don't see a problem. (So your EDS example is a bad one and hopefully not your only one)

The customers can make the decision as to whether or not they want to buy a brand name with technical backup, or want to buy a no name copy where the seller has no knowledge of the internal calibration. No different to eBay i guess and an idiot and his money are easily parted.

Sounds a crap way to make a living though, just ripping off other peoples work and not actually recalibrating anything at all, but but hey theres plenty of so called chip suppliers all other the world doing just that sadly.

 

Matt, Im not personally selling any, I have a friend who does though.

If you post on vauxsport and ask, I'll chat to you about it, but I wont do so on here as Im not a registered trader and neither is he and I dont want to tread on any toes of paid up chip sellers on here.

 

Well as per your post in the other thread about tuners selling modified ford chips on here, you can be certain of no copyright infringement by the absense of any court cases for copyright infringement.

What difference does it make if its a byte for byte copy or is a slightly modified one, without a court case proving that its illegal surely its none of PF's business the exact contents of the chip itself, they dont minutely inspect every other product sold on here, so why would they with chips? And even if they did, why would it be a problem if it was the same as some other chip on the market anyway? Without a court case surely thats irrelevant as per your other post about aftermarket tuners taking copies of ford/vauxhall data in the first place?


Dealers for companies like evolution chips provide good first line support with no knowledge of the specific of the internal calibration, so this level of support could be offered.
What couldnt be offered I guess is that if a question does require such intimiate knowledge or minor modification, evolution chips dealers have that 2nd line of support also available, chip copiers do not.
So its a case of "less" support, not none.

Using myself as an example, I have setup many cars on chips bought from other people (some genuine and some copied im sure, as ive never been involved in the sale of chips I dont have a definitive answer to that) and the owners of the cars in question have always been very positive with their feedback.

50 quid for a 2 quid chip and 5 mins to copy it, and then following it up with some technical support, doesnt sound too bad a living to me TBH, but then I quite enjoy helping people out for free, so earning a few quid doing so certainly sounds appealing to me, although I already have a job so wont be doing so myself at this point in time.

 

Fair comment Chip.

See you on there.

 

Knock off nigel IMHO.

 

Stu, I for on don't get it. In one of the threads that you keep locking you stated

I don't know who has told him this, and its certainly not me as i couldn't care less about his weber source code extractor and have already closed the loophole in all my own software including my forthcoming P8 ALS/LC software, but the fact is, this project was placed for sale on this very forum and then locked because of that fact, i know it was for sale as apart from the topic on here, he offered it to me personally and I rejected it. Seems odd that its now free. I personally suspect its a ploy to gain more commercial exposure before he changes his mind again and tries to sell, so it wont be recieving exposure on PassionFord.

Now if Simon was to offer it as free software what is the problem? This sort of chip tuning software exists in many other car communities like the Honda and Evo ones (chrome,ecuflash etc). It is open source, comunity developed and benefits the community as a whole. Simons software could be the start of this on the ford scene if he configured it to work with a low cost emulator and prom burner.

 

Did simon ever reply with details of where I could find the sourcecode for his work?
I asked after he mentioned about it going GNU, but I never saw the reply and the thread seems to be gone now.

Stu is a reasonable man and im sure when simon publishes the sourcecode under the GNU agreement, stu will believe its NOT a commercial venture.

 

I say create an IAW wiki and open it to the community. It's 20+ year old crap now that doesn't deserve locked doors.

 

Chip, you've gone into geek speak.. GNU?

 

Now thats a good idea.

 

Simon mentioned before that he would be releasing the code under GNU.

GNU licenses require the publishing of the sourcecode too, so at this point IMHO its clear its a labour of love NOT a commerical venture as you are giving everybody free access to all your work.

 

Stu,

Would a GNU license therefore satisfy your suspicions?

 

Stu,

Why do you keep locking the threads after making statements that I need a reply ?

You changed your reply and I wasnt able to comment which was unfair, tehn you lock the second thread asking for a legitimate clarification.

Your updated reply said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J1mbo
the only reason i can think of for you not being able to put mapping info up is because its killing tuners business, which i have to agree with it is wrong

STu, you changed your reply to read...

I don't know who has told him this, and its certainly not me as i couldn't care less about his weber source code extractor and have already closed the loophole in all my own software including my forthcoming P8 ALS/LC software, but the fact is, this project was placed for sale on this very forum and then locked because of that fact, i know it was for sale as apart from the topic on here, he offered it to me personally and I rejected it. Seems odd that its now free. I personally suspect its a ploy to gain more commercial exposure before he changes his mind again and tries to sell, so it wont be recieving exposure on PassionFord.


I never said to any one you were the person who told me I would ne moderated but now your reply does say that...LOL

I assurre you on my kids lives, my software will never be up for sale again.
It was a hobby project that someone persuaded me "could" make money.
I couldnt get the kind of deal I required so decided just to make it public domain instead.

Obviously you and tony are very biased against this project as all can see !
Get over it, you had the chance to silence this but chose to ignore or argue with me instead.
In fact in the beginning you were all for it, then changed your mind when you realised actually I can do exactly what I have said.


As for your software purely from a technical comment and warning to you for your own protection, the loop hole you have closed only prevents chips base files NOT Maps from a defined recent date from being extracted via the serial port under normal circumstances.
There is still a major loop hole in ALL encryption devices by using a bootstrap code insert into any area of the chip that is not encrypted such as the interupt vectors or init routines at the chip start.
Even if these didnt exist, no system is secure as code is free flowing in a hardware emulator of the 6803 processor using ghost memory imaging techniques I have developed and is also available openly from other places.
Please pass on this tech info to Nikola.

As you wont answer me directly am I to assume in conclusion that you (and IB) are allowing piracy on this site for money but only if you can do it and have used the exciuse of me selling this to protect your sales.
If this is the case, you are very transparent as all can see.

I wont post information on this site and risk breaking rules, but be sure the info will be in the public domain one way or another within the next week or so.
Your duplicity in this matter just makes me more determined to do this now.














__________________
Best Regards,

 

Correct mate. Source code will be available free a short while after software publishing

(all Free)

 

Cool, I will look forward to seeing it.

And hopefully being allowed to discuss it on here with my friends, as like Doug, I still view this place as a community of enthusiasts and dont really care about any business interests of the varous parties involved, merely in our enjoyment of our cars

 

Just thought i better post quick before this is locked too. I'm sure i and many others will be happy to congratulate you on your efforts and when your software is made public. It sounds good Simon.

 

Doug, why would you think this thread was going to get locked?

The other threads were just asking one specific question that when answered served no purpose being open, where as this thread is obviously an open dicussion, and im sure will be allowed to continue as one.

 

L8 ECU WROTE As you wont answer me directly am I to assume in conclusion that you (and IB) are allowing piracy on this site for money but only if you can do it and have used the exciuse of me selling this to protect your sales.

If I owned my own website such as Passionford I would make damn sure I protected my own sales by not letting others sell similar products or my own products that have been copied. I have no idea if Stu is or isnt doing this but I think he would be mad not to, bussiness is bussiness at the end of the day and im sure he would prefer the money in his own pocket. Thats MY view on the subject

 

Doug,

Cheers


Chip, that would be a nice situation but dont count on it.

What is that strange word enthusiasts you are using, what does that mean ?

 

Stu does not own PF he is supposed to be acting in the interests of IB (the owner) who unlike Stu have no commercial interests in weber ecus/chips/etc.

 

And guess what I would agree if it was my site but it isnt Stu's site anymore !

The problem is, Stu isnt saying its because he wants to protect sales publically.
He is using the excuse that I am selling it which is not the case at all.

ECU weber chips selling breaks the site rules anyway as it is piracy no matter what excuse is given !
If one person can do it, why cant I ? (not selling but you know what I mean..LOL)
Surely rules are applied evenly on this site to all users arent they ?

 

Simon, chip selling isnt piracy by the PF definition of piracy, which is ONLY the case if there has been a court case to PROVE piracy, a kind of "innocent until proven guilty" approach.

Which by coincidence fits in very well with what some of the mod team do for a living, which makes it appear like its the rules being twisted in their favour, but I genuinely believe that this is fair enough, I work for a car magazine and we accept adverts from chip sellers, so I see no reason for PF not to.

 

Simon, i hope you have come up with a decent name for it.

SECS monitor
S8 ECU

I bet you have called it S-Tune???

 

Doug, no trade names used past or present (I do not have a company of my own at all.. I work full time)

I wont say what its called as that will be taken as rule breaking

 

I can see what you are saying but excluding that angle, Stu is using the excuse of me selling the software to block it from public view on this site.
If he is allowed by rules to manipulate copied/modified original software then by the same rules I can do the same, it isnt a big secret !

 

Simon, you are literally boring me to tears now.

Some simple bullet points.

Do i care about the 20+ year old level 8 code being released?
Not a lot as knowing about code will never make you an engine calibrator.

Good God, Jonathan Purser did a great job of dissecting it bloody years ago and published a great website all about it. I am in contact with him regularly, in fact he helped me find some code i needed myself. Top man and delivers on time...You will need to beat his excellent website Simon, so go for it.

Why don't i give you time of day anymore?
See the other topic where you admit to having made my customers wait for years as a personal grudge against me. Now you want my time again?

Can you sell your code on here?
No.

Why?
Your not a trader on here.

Can you discuss it on here with a genuine GNU?
Yes.

I wont answer you directly?
Odd, Ive answered every post you have made, even answered your complaint texts when i was in hospital. However, i am still waiting for replies from you reference work you took on over 3 years ago... you know, I actually wonder why i let you use this site at all the more i think about how you have messed me and my customers around.


Stu,
A wiki is a great idea.

As for all you expert Piracy comments, ha ha, anyone care to explain why Seat UK pay us for remapping faults out of their new TD engines? Or why we are authorised remappers for many VAG, BMW and Mercedes main dealers? Some of the experts on here make me laugh with their wild stabs in the dark.

 

I think you are being unfair to Stu.

You have previously sold products related to your development with around the L8

You have stated recently you may be doing so with this.


From those facts, I too will view with a small amount of skeptisism your claims that this is now not a business venture, as a few weeks ago it sounded like it was.

Once you realase the source code though, I will obviously believe you that it isnt, and I am sure that Stu will do so too, if he doesnt at that point, then you have grounds for complaint but not before IMHO as the last evidence he saw was that it was going on sale, so you just saying that now it isnt, is hardly proof of that really.

 

Chip, this is no longer about making money.
Its started as a hobby project and yes I tried to sell it to a few PF official traders but they didnt want to back it.
This was the only way I wanted to sell it if it was to be sold as I stated many times.
It is now a 100% free of charge entity. Irrespective if the source code is released or not !
I have never asked for any money from anyone who has downloaded the demos and the pre released working versions and will not do so EVER.

I will release the software free any day now and at a later date the source code once its at a reasonable level I feel comfortable with.
I will never ask for money at any point with regards to this.


Stu,

I have never claimed to be or want to be an engine calibrator/tuner. I couldnt afford the pay cut

I only have mentioned YB Weber chips

Why use the excuse of me selling this software when its clear you just want to protect your "secrets" and trade ?

If this is a case just say so and be straight about it FFS !

As for the work you keep referring to that you say I havent done to deflect the subject, You have never paid me, offered to pay me any of this.
I just wanted that clarified in case there is any missunderstanding I have ripped you off.
As for the tacho mod, I emailed you a fix over a year ago that you never replied to so dont know if in fact you implemented it as you never called me to chase it !

As for you personal grudge comment...I dont have one in the way you are implying.
I am pissed off that the rules are being yet again applied differently depending on who you are !

 

Simon, come on mate, you tried to flog it to half the webteam, and now you are complaining they dont believe you that it isnt commerical?

Seriously mate, that really does make me chuckle

 

Stu,

Just to add that if you feel that you need to exclude/ban me from this site then that is your choice.
If this does happen, do it because you want to protect your trade and not under the excuse of hidden guise that I may be selling illegally when that isnt the case at all. !

I will choose a new user name as I am sure if I am still here after today, I will be asked to do so anyway.

 

It suited doug better anyway Simon

 

L8 you keep repeating that this software code thingamajig stuff you have got is part of you hobbies and that it COULD make money if you wanted it to but because you have a full time job its just a hobby. Why not pay to be a trader and make your hobby into a little earner? If you cant give it away why not sell it?

 

Really? Maybe read my reply again. It states extremely clearly, in a nice simple tomunderstand one word answer that once this is a GNU and plainly not for commercial gain, you can discuss it on PF.


Your a liar Simon. I got sick of offering you money for things and to your credit you regularly turned it down, as for money for the actual projects under discussion, it was always on a "Supply goods and send me a bill" as per every other company in the world. As per usual, you failed at the "Supply Goods" part. I am not short of money or a penny pincher and the suppliers on here who know me will be laughing at your deflection tactic. lol


Fancy that. You E-Mailed it. What a surprise it didnt arrive.
How come that was never mentioned on teh numerous voicemails, PM's and E-mails i have sent you about this subject for the last year?


Hmm, an extract from this topic proves differently.



Username?
Why would i care that you took Doug Sterlings username after he left PF just to annoy him? Im sure everyone could see how petty that was...

 

There we go Simon.

You have the choice now, release it under GNU like you said, and we can all disucss it as much as you want, until then obviously your previous attempts at selling it have prejudiced us from doing that.

I really think that Stu is being fair there mate!

 

Ok fair enough, I will accept that condition gladly.
I will in due course, publish everything and make an announcment in GD pointing to it


Yes I understood what you meant but you were inferring you had paid for stuff not done or supplied which isnt the case and was just clarifying that.
I didnt do this kind of work as a main trade back then so at that time didnt have time to complete projects we only ever talked about and made no formal agreement over.
You only brought this up to add ammo to your reasons,,,no other. !
What I have done or not done in the past is irelivant to this thread and common knowledge, you are the one changing the subject...Not me !



You didnt care at the time or in the last 3 or 4 months I have had it.
I asked advice from a moderator about having the name and was given the go ahead as long as I didnt impersonate the previous user.
As you mentioned Mr Stirling, it was him infact took that username to annoy me.
I chose as it was free to use and allowed and describes my area of enthusiasm...

If its still allowed I will keep it then as you dont care

So...GNU it is then...

 

Ref Doug, L8 ECU is his number plate, and he used to be a registered trader on here selling them, thats why he had it as a username.