just need to know how a charge cooler works... is it like an intercooler?

its an idea using a electricity to cool the air... but if its already been done then whats the point...

 

please dont tell me you wanna use an air con unit

 

?? Is this a trick question?

 

lol... not air con... i was thinking of using a fan

it is a serious question... im just a think sh*t that is confused how a charge cooler works...

 

a charge cooler uses water

 

A charge cooler is basically an intercooler sat in a box full of water (although sometimes the water goes through the cooler and the air goes around it essentially) so its basically an Air to water cooler.

Then you have a water to air cooler (normal radiator) on the front of the car, and pump the water between the two.

 

let's hear your idea then

a chargecooler just means a heat exchanger device to cool the air charge going to the engine

an intercooler is a chargecooler - an air to air one

what is normally called a chargecooler is a water to air one. i.e. you have a heat exchanger that the charge air goes through encased in a water jacket and the heat in the air is passed to the water which is then pumped around a circuit to be given out from a radiator

i can't see how a fan would come into that?

by the way, regarding using a/c to cool the charge air - at best with an automotive a/c system you will have a COP of 2. that means that however much cooling you need, you have to put in twice the energy to get it

 

My mate builds Commercial turbo coolers(Denso) for a living, and I remember last year getting into quite a heated discussion as to the correct name for them...

They call all coolers, Chargecoolers, they are either air to air, or air to water, chargecoolers

We agreed to differ.

 

fair enuf...

my idea was to use a "pelter" device... if you haven't heard of these before its a plate made of a mix of N type metals and P type metals... when a current is passed through these, all the heat is transferred to one side... it is regularly used to cool PC's at the moment... most nowadays have the ability to create condensation on one side, and some can even freeze the condensation... maybie not as a complete replacement for an IC... but an adition to it... the only thing i can see being a problem is the possible addition of another battery/alternator adding weight...


if you want more info on a peltier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect

 

Why not place it direct into the airflow? Similar to the CO2 bullets you can get?

 

In terms of aiding the cooling with an electric device I suppose you could do it with a Peltier device, also known as thermoelectric (TE) modules, these are small solid-state devices that function as heat pumps. A "typical" unit is a few millimeters thick by a few millimeters to a few centimeters square. It is a sandwich formed by two ceramic plates with an array of small Bismuth Telluride cubes ("couples") in between. When a DC current is applied heat is moved from one side of the device to the other

If you has an alloy intercooler and mounted the peltier to the end tanks perhaps this would work however the warm side of the peltier would obviously increase under bonnet termpratures..

Just mentioning theory, not for a moment suggesting that this would work or that Im going to try it

 

there was a reason for me saying "please dont tell me you wanna use an air con unit"

 

it would take some energy

 

Like this?

 

thems the ones! just thought it would be a good idea... i used them as a way to cool a boiler control unit - being as that is in a boiler its pretty hot... so was thinking it could work to aid IC's or something...

could od with someone that knows what they are on about...

 

basically yes... that would be the idea... but probably with a heatsink on each side, that way you get maximum heat transference

 

you need to think about how much heat energy you need to get rid of first, and this will tell you how big your peltier device would need to be and how much power you would need to drive it

and don't get confused thinking that because you are cooling something that is 'quite hot' you are doing a lot of cooling work. there's more to it than that

for the charge air;

cooling power = mass flow x change in temperature

i think that the mass flow rate of air is pretty high for a turbo engine at full chat, so your cooling power requirement will be quite large

 

thats why i need someone who knows about engines to give me an idea of the ammount of cooling that needs to be done and if its an idea that could be looked into... like i said they are used in hot environments to cool circuit boards... also a possible way to help reduce heat soak?? as in can be brought in to help when the air temperature out of the IC starts to increase under heavy load?

 

i say.. forgot about the idea,, the batterys need to provide the electrical energy will slow the car down more than the higher ACTs

 

Its no fluke that all the top race/rally/everything cars use intercoolers as much as physically possible.

 

thought that might be a problem... was just a thought i got after using them for cooling...

now then, onto my next idea! DRY ICE

(that was a joke by the way... i know that it has been used before on f1 cars.etc...)

 

nilrem figure it out yourself, you've got a brain haven't you?

just use rough figures to give you an idea, i've given you the basics

take a 2 litre engine for example and assume that the turbo increases it's volumetric efficiency to 150% and you have an engine that will be requiring 3 litres of air every 2 revolutions

use a fixed engine speed and you can work out how much air volume per second that is

assume a temperature out of the turbo - something like 100 deg. C out to do - and then you can work out what mass of air that is per second

then work out what temperature drop you want to achieve - anything less than 50 deg. C would be shit

and there you have it. you do the math

 

Your mate was right

Both "air to air" and "air to water" are devices used to "cool" the "charge" from the turbocharger (or supercharger, which is a similar debate)

 

Ice Qubes

 

foreigneRS

i was seeing if it had been thought of before/tried... im at work and had just though of it so i can hardly just stop and get on with the calculations... lol thanks for the help either way!

 

Here's a better idea that actually works.

Look for turbo expanders. they are like reverse screw-type superchargers. Compress the air up to a stupid pressure (30bar) then put it through the expander and get it back down to a normal pressure (2bar). Supposedly cosworth had ice forming on the casing of these things back in the turbo-F1 days. madness! regulations then interveind and stopped such high pressures being allowed.

JAmes.

 

You missed the bit where its intercooler BEFORE the expander.

 

so you want to add energy to the air by compressing it to 3 bar, then take energy out to get it back to 2 bar and you think that somehow you will gain something?

 

No, thats not how it works.


You compress it to 30 bar or something along those lines.

It gets VERY hot as a result of the compression.

you pass your air at 300 degrees+ through an intercooler and bring it down to 100 degrees.

Then you let it expand, which massively drops the temperature, and it ends up sub zero



Its just a fridge basically mate!

 

you have a pm

 

what chip said...

 

doh, read it as 3 bar, not 30