cossie/rs200 inlet manifold blowing up problem!(pics)
27-09-2009, 07:24 PM
#1
cossie/rs200 inlet manifold blowing up problem!(pics)
me and my m8 Andy (northern bloke on pf) were spannering for our m8 Jim with his rs200 rep this weekend at croft in the northern saloons championship when this happened during qualifying
the engine is a Yb and the manifold is an rs200 plenum welded to the front part of a yb one, the rs200 part upon inspection doesn't appear to be very well made the alloy is as thin as 2 mm in places!
upon removing it the full extent of the damage could be seen, the samco boost hose exiting the turbo was also split badly so I don't believe it was just an issue with the plenum
we fitted the spare standardish cosworth one and it was fine again, with only other issues with the car causing a DNF
has anyone else seen this sort of issue before?
The car is running a t38 with at the time 36psi and has a quaife 6 speed gearbox with paddle change and lots of electronic wizardry to work with the L8 ecu
I believe the issue is some sort of backfire but the car isn't displaying any signs of one here is a quick vid of it during qualifying just before the incident and the gearchanges sound fine
the engine is a Yb and the manifold is an rs200 plenum welded to the front part of a yb one, the rs200 part upon inspection doesn't appear to be very well made the alloy is as thin as 2 mm in places!
upon removing it the full extent of the damage could be seen, the samco boost hose exiting the turbo was also split badly so I don't believe it was just an issue with the plenum
we fitted the spare standardish cosworth one and it was fine again, with only other issues with the car causing a DNF
has anyone else seen this sort of issue before?
The car is running a t38 with at the time 36psi and has a quaife 6 speed gearbox with paddle change and lots of electronic wizardry to work with the L8 ecu
I believe the issue is some sort of backfire but the car isn't displaying any signs of one here is a quick vid of it during qualifying just before the incident and the gearchanges sound fine
Last edited by The Youth.; 28-09-2009 at 07:20 AM.
27-09-2009, 07:46 PM
#3
Will, it was supported by the goalpost shaped support in the bottom pic, this was fitted by jim after the first failure of the manifold a few months ago, what I don't get is that the samco also split about 3" exiting the turbo and the intercooler sounds like it may have split slightly aswell
if it was just a weak plenum the hose shouldn't also shit itself surely.
steve
if it was just a weak plenum the hose shouldn't also shit itself surely.
steve
27-09-2009, 07:57 PM
#4
Advanced PassionFord User
Talked through this before. It the flat gear shift. Unless the ignition is fully controled the flat shift will/can backfire.
It does the same thing on jap stuff thats run the same type of setup.
Time for individual coil on plug control
It does the same thing on jap stuff thats run the same type of setup.
Time for individual coil on plug control
Last edited by robrs2; 27-09-2009 at 07:58 PM.
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27-09-2009, 10:05 PM
#8
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I've been working out some inlets recently and the forces on them are pretty scary.
For example, say your inlet is 150mm by 300mm at 2 bar of boost the pressure on it at your boost level would be be over 1000kg!
For example, say your inlet is 150mm by 300mm at 2 bar of boost the pressure on it at your boost level would be be over 1000kg!
28-09-2009, 04:14 PM
#12
surely though if its flat shift then the throttle plate is open so it has somewhere for the explosion to go (ie back down the inlet)
Ive had a few monster backfires on my nova using a rs200 plenum without a problem (I had a crank sensor fault that cased them) but mine is bolted not welded, so maybe the welding as weakened it.
Ive had a few monster backfires on my nova using a rs200 plenum without a problem (I had a crank sensor fault that cased them) but mine is bolted not welded, so maybe the welding as weakened it.
28-09-2009, 05:04 PM
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It’s not always easy to recount exactly what you were doing when things go wrong, especially when your on a race track with proper race cars all around you, but I was either flat out in 3rd about to change to 4th by lifting off the throttle slightly to dis-engage the dogs in the transaxle and operating the paddle shift to change gear or in 4th and back on full throttle.
The full throttle shift cut that I have was switched off at the time so this can’t be the fault, just a L8 ECU set up by MSD. I was running a bit too much boost as it should have been 34 psi max but the pressures encountered to cause that damage must be excessive to say the least.
The stress idea sounds good apart from this happened before and why would the hose go as well, that tube was for a PSV but I unfortunately didn't have it fitted
The reason the manifold was fully welded up was because it was the bolted part that let go the first time, so I welded it up.
Luckily the intercooler is OK this time as I have just pressured tested the system and I can’t find any leaks.
If it was a backfire, what could cause it on what is normally such a sweet running engine?
Jim
The full throttle shift cut that I have was switched off at the time so this can’t be the fault, just a L8 ECU set up by MSD. I was running a bit too much boost as it should have been 34 psi max but the pressures encountered to cause that damage must be excessive to say the least.
The stress idea sounds good apart from this happened before and why would the hose go as well, that tube was for a PSV but I unfortunately didn't have it fitted
The reason the manifold was fully welded up was because it was the bolted part that let go the first time, so I welded it up.
Luckily the intercooler is OK this time as I have just pressured tested the system and I can’t find any leaks.
If it was a backfire, what could cause it on what is normally such a sweet running engine?
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 28-09-2009 at 05:10 PM.
28-09-2009, 05:06 PM
#16
Did you hear a backfire?
If you heard one then you had one, as they are pretty fecking loud generally when they do that sort of thing.
As above, I would imagine you had one judging by the carnage!
As for what caused it, the boost creep may have caused the ecu to boost cut and led to a misfire? depends on how stu has setup the boost cut on the ecu (assuming it has some at all)
It could also have gone too lean if it ran off the end of the map and backfired cause of that.
If you heard one then you had one, as they are pretty fecking loud generally when they do that sort of thing.
As above, I would imagine you had one judging by the carnage!
As for what caused it, the boost creep may have caused the ecu to boost cut and led to a misfire? depends on how stu has setup the boost cut on the ecu (assuming it has some at all)
It could also have gone too lean if it ran off the end of the map and backfired cause of that.
Last edited by Chip; 28-09-2009 at 05:09 PM.
28-09-2009, 07:11 PM
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Fuel: it was Shell super as it has always run and it was running fine apart from that one problem.
Steve (The Youth) said he saw it backfire out the exhaust on the entrance to the corner, that would have been changing down from 6th to 3rd (in order 6, 5, 4 to 3rd) and using a throttle blipper. Is that type of backfire not different to it backfiring into the inlet?
What did I hear: well it is very noisy in the car, especially with an engine six inches from your left ear but it certainly went bang.
The previous time I had this problem was as I was changing gear on the road at about 6k from 4th to 5th
The PSV will be getting fitted the next time out that's for sure.
Jim
Steve (The Youth) said he saw it backfire out the exhaust on the entrance to the corner, that would have been changing down from 6th to 3rd (in order 6, 5, 4 to 3rd) and using a throttle blipper. Is that type of backfire not different to it backfiring into the inlet?
What did I hear: well it is very noisy in the car, especially with an engine six inches from your left ear but it certainly went bang.
The previous time I had this problem was as I was changing gear on the road at about 6k from 4th to 5th
The PSV will be getting fitted the next time out that's for sure.
Jim
29-09-2009, 08:03 AM
#20
chip, I was on the pit wall and as he changed gear on that lap it sounded like a missfire and did produce a big puff of black smoke from the zorst, the car then did half a lap with no apparant problem before the manifold went bang, I mentioned this to jim as we don't have much evidence to go on with regards to what is causing it.
the blanked off blue hose is for a pressure relief valve that was off for some mods this was fitted after the last manifold blow up to try and save it happening again, unfortunatley with trying to sort other issues with the car we forgot to refit it.
it is designed to lift at around 40 psi.
steve
the blanked off blue hose is for a pressure relief valve that was off for some mods this was fitted after the last manifold blow up to try and save it happening again, unfortunatley with trying to sort other issues with the car we forgot to refit it.
it is designed to lift at around 40 psi.
steve
Last edited by The Youth.; 29-09-2009 at 08:16 AM.
29-09-2009, 08:38 AM
#22
It certainly looks like that is the case at first glance, but when ive had a violent inlet backfire there is no fecking way you wouldnt hear it happen
Its just a monstrously loud noise, on a par with a gunshot.
I think we are all expecting it to be from a backfire, im just surprised it wasnt audible if it was violent enough to do that.
There is the chance though that it wasnt, it could have been a stress fracture that spread, the strength comes from its structure.
Its just a monstrously loud noise, on a par with a gunshot.
or am I missing something?
There is the chance though that it wasnt, it could have been a stress fracture that spread, the strength comes from its structure.
29-09-2009, 09:20 AM
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29-09-2009, 09:22 AM
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29-09-2009, 09:26 AM
#27
Im just trying to help mate.
You need to work out why it happened so you can stop it happening again.
A plenum like that should be able to handle a backfire, mine has done.
I would look at making it a bolt on part, as per original specification, so that you dont have to keep welding them up when you replace it.
You need to work out why it happened so you can stop it happening again.
A plenum like that should be able to handle a backfire, mine has done.
I would look at making it a bolt on part, as per original specification, so that you dont have to keep welding them up when you replace it.
29-09-2009, 09:33 AM
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Thanks for the help, it’s much appreciated
I did hear it go bang.
So if this could have caused by detonation then the only thing I should do is take it back to MSD and get it fully checked out, I’ve got full confidence in Stu and Kenny as the engine was well put together and mapped by them and runs as sweet as can be for a cossie engine, apart from the manifold incident…LOL
The only problem now is the transaxle has to come out for repair and I don’t intend to refit it as it has caused more heartache than the manifold, just not sure what to fit in it’s place. This means it will be next year sometime before I can get it over to them, as unfortunately transaxles aren’t cheap
Just need to find another RS200 plenum and inlet at the right price, how did you mate up the plenum to your inlet manifold?
Couple of photos of original bolted manifold and the 1st damage.
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 29-09-2009 at 09:43 AM.
29-09-2009, 04:33 PM
#30
Have a look at the Audi 016 boxes mate, if you are currently using a crappy renault one like I am guessing you are on?
Would mean new adaptor though
Mine is bolted up to a flat plate (which me and my dad made with a drill, a hack saw and a file), which then bolts to a set of jenvey throttle body blanks, like so:
Bloke I got mine off had loads, I can probably dig out the details, if not steveboyslim will know so I can always find out off of him.
Would mean new adaptor though
Mine is bolted up to a flat plate (which me and my dad made with a drill, a hack saw and a file), which then bolts to a set of jenvey throttle body blanks, like so:
Bloke I got mine off had loads, I can probably dig out the details, if not steveboyslim will know so I can always find out off of him.
29-09-2009, 04:34 PM
#31
If your ignition timing was out, a massive backfire in the inlet isnt surprising at all, thats how I was getting them on mine when I tried to use the SM4 with a weak crank signal from the OEM TPS before i converted to a different setup.
29-09-2009, 04:49 PM
#34
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quaif sequential box with a flappy paddle thing lol.,, i think Jim would not have spent what he did if it wasnt rated correctly mate , but sure steve or jim know more than me .Sure the quaife should take the bhp i believe over 400 but not 100%
29-09-2009, 05:11 PM
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Box is a universal Quaife 25G transaxle that came out of a GT3 race car that was being broken up for spares. Quaife rate it for 650 bhp, which is more than enough for my YB, (I know it should be rated for power (torque) but that's all Quaife rated for BHP)
I like your inlet, I may do something similar next time.
I would be interested in a plenum if the price was right.
Jim
I like your inlet, I may do something similar next time.
I would be interested in a plenum if the price was right.
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 29-09-2009 at 05:16 PM.
29-09-2009, 08:07 PM
#36
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i have a renault box in mine and its been fine all year at around 400-440 bhp and it gets used properly.
i am having it rebuilt/upgraded with a new mainshaft, new 1st,2nd and maybe 5th and a plated diff. also asked for a price for straight cut 1st-4th and a helical overdrive 5th.
should be able to take over 600lbs.
i am having it rebuilt/upgraded with a new mainshaft, new 1st,2nd and maybe 5th and a plated diff. also asked for a price for straight cut 1st-4th and a helical overdrive 5th.
should be able to take over 600lbs.
30-09-2009, 08:10 AM
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If he has any more at that price I’ll take one
The possible lack of flex in the intercooler to plenum hoses and the stress fatigue theory due to welding etc are both great ideas but they would not have caused the turbo to intercooler hose to blow as well. So extreme pressure due to a backfire sounds more plausible.
Anybody got an idea on what sort of pressure that could be, burst pressure on that hose if new would be around 225 psi
Anybody got an idea on what sort of pressure that could be, burst pressure on that hose if new would be around 225 psi
Last edited by Jim S; 30-09-2009 at 08:48 AM.