Was driving along quite happily when the car cut out at a set of lights and wouldn't start again. It's turning over but won't fire up.

Got the AA out, fuel going through and it's getting a spark but won't start. He checked the coil and said no power getting through. Turned it over a few times and it started.....then cut out again when i revved it.

Got it towed to the garage but they can't find the problem as it has now decided to start every time. Went to pick it up and now it won't start

Garage say it can't be the coil as it either works or it doesn't. They think it's the immobiliser but surely it wouldn't turn over and pump fuel through if it was?

Any ideas??

Ta

 

[quote="kevsrs"]Was driving along quite happily when the car cut out at a set of lights and wouldn't start again. It's turning over but won't fire up.

Got the AA out, fuel going through and it's getting a spark but won't start. He checked the coil and said no power getting through. Turned it over a few times and it started.....then cut out again when i revved it.

Got it towed to the garage but they can't find the problem as it has now decided to start every time. Went to pick it up and now it won't start

Garage say it can't be the coil as it either works or it doesn't. They think it's the immobiliser but surely it wouldn't turn over and pump fuel through if it was?

Any ideas??


hmmm if theres a spark and thers fuel it should start
The garage are right your coil will either work or wont work so it could be your immobiliser. Have you checked the fuel cuttoff switch in the boot i know they can play up from time to time but to be honest it sounds like you may have to go through the wiring to check for bad connections
Good luck

 

kevsrs: Is your car EFI or MFI?

 

I didn't even know there was a fuel cut off switch in the boot!

Safechav it's MFI

 

If its MFI there is no fuel cut off, thats EFI only.

Many years ago when i was a kid, my mum had a MK4 MFI orion, for years we had problems with miss firing intermittently, my dad spent a fortune continually replacing the dizzy cap, rotor arm, leads etc for proper motorcraft ones as that was all the cured the problem, then towards the end a few times it died like yours, and wouldnt always re-start straight away, turned out to be the ignition module.

Never played up after.

If i were you give it a service, new cap, rotor arm, leads, see how it goes, failing that its more than likely the module, or very unlikely but maybe the dizzy itself. My moneys on the module.

 

rs turbo's ain't got a cutoff switch in the boot

 

Sorry, sorry, is yours a Turbo is it? For some reason i got it into my head it was an XR3i with all the cut off switch talk?

 

i had the same problem on mine was driving along one day and it cut out and would'nt start got towed home left it for a bit and it started and run for about 5 seconds then cut out i changed the dizzy and it fired stright up and been fine ever since the dizzy is a common on rs turbo's

 

Well i've still got this problem after trying a few things. I changed the leads, plugs, cap and am still trying to change the rotor arm. It started first time and ran for 2 days although the idling was a bit erratic. Then out of the blue it cut out on the motorway and now won't start

Could it be the coil or is this unlikely? And is there anyway to check the dizzy?

Cheers

 

That just screams ignition module to me

 

Apparently, S2s don't have an ignition module. After you suggested it, I went to a parts shop who sold me an ignition module that's meant to go onto the distributor. There was no such part when i took the distributor off.

I'm very confused now after this post -

https://passionford.com/forum/viewto...asc&highlight=

Any ideas??

 

Right i remember the post now, when i realised it might of been an RS Turbo i posted the below but got no reply:

Your correct there is no module! RS Turbo's have an ECU instead, so its more than likely going to be your hall effect sensor in the dizzy instead! Very prone to breaking down, theres a company that make a new all in one sensor, ive got someone else wanting to know who they are aswell. I'll get back to you asap with it.

Sorry for the confusion aswell by the way

 

Would a new dizzy sort this problem?

 

As long as it is the dizzy that has faulty then yes, but as i said a new unit isnt needed, you can buy new (and modified) sensors. I can try and find you the place thats sells them if you want?

If the dizzy is gone there will be no and/or intermittent spark

 

So it wouldn't be the dizzy that's faulty but the sensor inside? (is that the bit on top of the dizzy with 3 wires going in to it?)

If you could find out for me that would be great mate. I may aswell change the dizzy/sensors as i've no other lead at the moment.

I feel like taking a match to the thing as it's doing my head in and i need to take the bus to work too

 

I'll see what i can do, in the mean time test for a spark, if theres no spark there is a good chance its the dizzy. Also listen to see if the fuel pump runs when you crank the engine over.

 

As you'll have gathered by now i don't know too much about mechanics so another daft question - how do i check for a spark?

I remember reading something about it in the haynes manual - something like take the lead off the plug and hold it against the block and crank the engine??

The fuel pump primes when the ignition is switched on but i can't hear it making any noise when i turn the engine over. I thought if it primed that meant it worked?

 

Ok, no worries everyone has to start somewhere.

My preferred way to check for a spark is to take a plug out, pop it in the HT lead and place the plug somewhere on the enging if you can, like the rocker cover on a bolt, then crank it over.

The fuel pump relay are whats known as tachometric. When you turn the ignition on it gets a switched feed from the ignition, and primes, then when you crank the car and its running, it senses the ignition pulses from the coil (also a safety measure to stop the pump when the engine stops incase for instance the car was in an accident), now this is another big give away, if the pump isnt running then theres no ignition pulse on the LT (Low tension) side, my money personally is on the dizzy, but theres a chance it could be the coil, or ignition ECU (silver one).

Its hard to hear the pump when your cranking, might we worth getting a right hand man to help. If theres no spark the pump won't be running either.

Is that understandable enough for you? I hope it is

 

Thanks for the explanation safechav and for all your help so far. At least i've got something to try now

I'll check the spark when i've got someone else there. If there is a spark does that mean it can't be the dizzy or coil? But then again if it's intermittent there might be a spark one minute and no spark the next. Nah, i know there won't be a spark!

I'll no doubt be back in touch!

Cheers

 

Exactly, intermittent faults are the worst kind! If there is a spark it doesnt rule anything out for definate, just have to hope there is no spark, or that the fault is evident.

You can check for a spark on your own, just leave the door open, and reach through to turn the key.

Let me know how u get on

 

U checked all your pipes running off your metering head?

put a new turbo on mine the other week and was running WAY too much boost. After a blast or 2 it would do the same, cut out and would not start.

Pop the bonnet and put the pipe back on it was ok again. but im assuming youve checked all your pipes?

 

No i've not checked these pipes. I take it by check them you mean make sure they're on?

 

I checked today and there was no spark.

I was reading something in the haynes manual about checking ignition faults and it says if no spark at the plugs you can take the HT lead from the distributor to the coil, hold it to the block, turn the engine and check for a spark coming from the coil.

Would this work to find out if it's distributor or coil?

Cheers

 

Ummm, not necessarily, if it was the rotor arm/dizzy cap at fault then it would indicate a fault, but if the sensor has gone in the dizzy, its not giving any LT signals to make the coil produce a spark, nothing to lose by trying it!!

 

Do as the haynes manual says, pull the coil lead off the dizzy and hold it close to the head (5mm) gap and crank it over. You should have a spark.

If you have no spark, you need a 12 volt test lamp (just a normal indicator bulb in a holder with 2 wires will do, or you can but a cheap one from Halfords for about a fiver). Connect one lead to the battery negative (the one with a croc clip if it's a proper test lamp) and the other lead (or probe if it's a proper test lamp) to the negative side of the coil (should have green wires to it, and you must leave it connected to the coil). With the ignition on, the bulb should light up. When you crank the engine over, it should flash on and off repeatedly. If it doesn't flash then the coil is not being switched. You are then looking at either the ECU, wiring or dizzy sensor.

 

Cheers daz,

If it does flash on and off as above, what would that suggest?

Also, if i take the coil lead off the dizzy is it still connected to the coil in some way? I just can't work out how it could be the dizzy if the HT lead to the coil is off

 

If the sensor in the sizzy has packed up, it won't produce the LT signals to make the coil produce a spark, the dizzy has a timing wheel inside with 4 cut outs (4 cylinders to fire on), if the sensor has packed up it won't be producing the signals for to fire the plugs.

Does that makes sense to you?

 

Kind of. I didn't know the dizzy made the coil produce a spark, I thought the coil sent the spark to the dizzy.

I've decided i'm gonna get a new distributor but there's no way i can attempt to fit it myself cos i've got no idea how to set the igniton timing.

I don't know who i can get to do it though as i can't take it to a garage as it doesn't start

Cheers for the info

 

The coil does send the spark to the dizzy.

The way ignition systems work, is 12v is transformed into several thousands of volts (by the coil), which is basically like a mains transformer. Something has to make and break the circuit to the LT (Low Tension) side of the coil, in order to produce a fake kind of AC voltage (for instance a mains transformer can only work from AC voltages), this then produces a high voltage (Stepping up voltages steps down current in a proportional ratio, and vice versa) on the HT (High Tension) side of the coil, to produce sparks.

So, basically, the distributor on your car, inside, has a sensor in 12v LT side, which produces signals for each of the 4 sparks, which creates high voltages on the HT side of the coil, which then connects onto the end of the distributor, and is distributed to each cylinder in the desired order by means of the rotor arm (which spins inside the distributor cap).

Sorry if thats still to technical to understand?

If it is your problem its easy peasy to fix, obiously when fitting the new one fit it in the same place as it should be relatively close to how it is set now (if your lucky it might be spot on), then its literally a case of run the car up to temperature, connect a timing gun onto the car, disconnect the vacuum pipe from the ECU, tap in the desired timing into the gun, point it at the bottom pully on the engine, and you should a little notch in the pulley wheel against the number marks on the bottom cam belt cover section, which should be inline with the "0", if not adjust the dizzy a bit at a time until it is. When you get it there, tighten the dizzy, re-connect the vacuum pipe to the ecu, and the jobs a good un

That may seem a lot, but once you've done it you will realise how simple it is, if you say you have a haynes manual, that will also tell you what to do, with some diagrams!

Or, ultimately, buy a new sensor to go in the dizzy, and then you wont even need to disturb it, it can stay on the head! (Thats what i would do personally ) Plus the fact the modified ones dont have all the wires running inside the dizzy, one compact unit, and wire free

 

Brilliant explanation there safechav, thanks

I was nodding my head and understood everything until this bit - Sorry but that's double dutch to me and i fear for my car if i try to do this myself

Is the sensor the only bit of the dizzy that can go faulty? And where would i get a new one from? Is it easy to fit?

As always, thanks for your help

 

Hmmm, my explanation of the timing procedure probably wasnt the best, read the haynes manual, it will make more sense.

The sensor isnt the only thing that can go faulty no, there is also the dizzy cap and rotor arm that can fail, but you can tell a lot by looking at them, and cheaper to replace.

Did you test to see if theres a spark straight from the coil as you said was described in the haynes? If there isnt a spark from that lead on its own, the problem isnt the cap/rotor arm as its not even in the equation, leaving what DazC said then, either a wiring (Unlikely), ignition ecu, or dizzy sensor fault. Personally, im putting my money on the dizzy sensor, a very common thing on these.

Mine is on its way out, occasionally it miss-fires and back fires out the exhaust very loudly, its funny at the moment as it still drives, but ill probably when i brake down.

I'm waiting for DazRS to get back to me about where the sensors come from, and as for fitting, if i said removing the old sensor is harder (which isnt actually hard) than the new one is to fit, would that grab you by the goulies?

 

I think i forgot to mention i've already changed the plugs, leads, cap and rotor arm.No, but i will do this todayIt's funny you should mention that cos i've noticed over the last couple of months it sometimes hesitated under boost and backfired a few times too. After reading everything you've said i'm now quite confident it's the distributor.Well when you put it like that i'm sure even i could change it and make it look easy

 

Mine only does it sometimes aswell, 99% of the time when im trying to show someone how its done Done it a few times litterally giving it a tiny bit of juice pulling off aswell

Tends to have patches, it'll be doing it consistently for a while then stop, but its progressively getting worse, it is funny to see all the drunks in town jump out of their skin though

That's what my money is on, but do the tests anyway incase its not.

Thats the spirit, at least have a go!! No point paying some other monkey to do it if you can do it yourself, AND you know EXACTLY what you've done

Let me know how u get on

 

I recently had a Polo with a hall effect sensor. The car would run for 10 minutes or so, then cut out. No spark. That was the sensor in the dizzy.

 

I can easily believe, electronic components don't go too well with heat.

kevsrs: DazRS got back to me and no longer has the details of the company, he gave me a rough idea i'll see if i can track them down for you

 

safechav cheers for tryin mate. Am currently lookin at buyin a new dizzy for 50 quid which seems quite reasonable and i may as well just replace it. Should hopefully have one in a few days, there's one on here and one on ebay

Checked the spark from the coil as well and......................there's no spark!

Still not sure about doin it myself though. There's a mobile mechanic not far from me so may give him a call.

 

No problem at all thats what were all here for

If you can get a brand new one for that, then that seems quite reasonable, im sure the sensor was near that on its own, although a new dizzy may have the old style in, but still it will last years

I'd have a go, have you not got any mates that know a bit more that could possibly help you?

Just trying to help you save a few ŁŁŁ no one likes spending money un-needed

 

Nah, ma mates just think they know what they're doin but in reality don't really know much more than me, i think you call them tyre kickers

We can all do stuff like changing plugs, oil, brakes, starter etc, but for something like ignition timing i think you need to know what your doin.

Sure i've got the haynes manual but the terminology it uses can be a bit confusing if you don't understand it in the first place. It just assumes you know what your doin with comments like 'Step1, before doing this, remove the gearbox.'

Plus i would think a qualified mechanic would have it done in no time so hopefuly wouldn't be too dear.

P.S. about your wiring diagram for the alarm, you can find ANYTHING on the net even if it aint meant to be there

 

Tyre kickers NOOOOOOOOOOO lol

Well you have to start with the basics and progress your way up, as does everyone. As long as your careful and use common sense it should be fine.

lol theyre not that bad but i get what you mean

A mechanic would but you'll end up paying an hours labour, which aint cheap. (unless they do it on the side )

The alarm diagrams, i know this, im sure evrything is out there, its just every fucker except me can find it, im awful with pc's, at least you can manage some simple tasks on your car, im totally useless on pc's.

I think this was made to represent me

 

Well feel free to ask stupid, daft questions about your pc like i do with cars fortunately i know A LOT more about these bits of junk than cars, oh and mobile phones too

Ha ha i hadn't seen that one