Rally Cars
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Rally Cars
This is probably a stupid question but i see on here all the time describing different Rally Car's as Group A,B,N etc.
What does each of these actually mean??
What does each of these actually mean??
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It's not a stupid question unless you know the answer mate! 
I beleive it's the different classes that the cars individually raced/competed in, think i'm also right in saying that the higher the class you compete in the better spec the car was HTH
I beleive it's the different classes that the cars individually raced/competed in, think i'm also right in saying that the higher the class you compete in the better spec the car was
HTH
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Group A - Works cars. About 300bhp
Group N - Supposed to be showroom spec
Group B - Rally super cars from the 80's. Only 200 req for homologation.
I think.
Then theres also the Group 4 rally cars from years back.
Also Group C sports cars etc (Prototypes only etc)
Group N - Supposed to be showroom spec
Group B - Rally super cars from the 80's. Only 200 req for homologation.
I think.
Then theres also the Group 4 rally cars from years back.
Also Group C sports cars etc (Prototypes only etc)
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group A are your works rally Scoobies, EVO's, Foci etc
Group B was the RS200 (which killed the sport), Audi Quattro, 205 Turbo, Lancia S4. Very fast, frantic, amazing, but very dangerous and therefore short-lived. As said, needed to have built at least 200 examples of the car to sell
Group N was stuff like the Maxi RS2000
Group B was the RS200 (which killed the sport), Audi Quattro, 205 Turbo, Lancia S4. Very fast, frantic, amazing, but very dangerous and therefore short-lived. As said, needed to have built at least 200 examples of the car to sell
Group N was stuff like the Maxi RS2000
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Originally Posted by Mike C
group A are your works rally Scoobies, EVO's, Foci etc
Group B was the RS200 (which killed the sport), Audi Quattro, 205 Turbo, Lancia S4. Very fast, frantic, amazing, but very dangerous and therefore short-lived. As said, needed to have built at least 200 examples of the car to sell
Group N was stuff like the Maxi RS2000
Group B was the RS200 (which killed the sport), Audi Quattro, 205 Turbo, Lancia S4. Very fast, frantic, amazing, but very dangerous and therefore short-lived. As said, needed to have built at least 200 examples of the car to sell
Group N was stuff like the Maxi RS2000
Originally Posted by SimonT
Originally Posted by Mike C
group A are your works rally Scoobies, EVO's, Foci etc
Group B was the RS200 (which killed the sport), Audi Quattro, 205 Turbo, Lancia S4. Very fast, frantic, amazing, but very dangerous and therefore short-lived. As said, needed to have built at least 200 examples of the car to sell
Group N was stuff like the Maxi RS2000
Group B was the RS200 (which killed the sport), Audi Quattro, 205 Turbo, Lancia S4. Very fast, frantic, amazing, but very dangerous and therefore short-lived. As said, needed to have built at least 200 examples of the car to sell
Group N was stuff like the Maxi RS2000
or was group N Tarmac stuff, cos u see a lot of cars like that on tarmac/rally cross
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No mate. Group N is "Production Class"
see here
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/events/0503scc_rally/
see here
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/events/0503scc_rally/
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Originally Posted by SimonT
Originally Posted by Dan
So Grp A is WRC? 
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In order...
Grp 'n' showroom class....cars with limited modification from standard models....have to ratain things like trim...roof lining...limited on engine mods....smaller(32mm) restrictor...currently dominated by Mitsy and Subs...all cars have to comply with FIA national and international homologation rules...
Grp'a'....old flight top level cars highly modified from the road car but still have to comply with homologation rules laid down by FIA....all parts are submitted and approved...
Grp'b'....now outlawed in WRC and no longer homologated by the fia....still run(just) under the banner of the RAC MSA....these included Metro 6R4's, Pug T16...RS200....Audi etc....built in limited batches of a minimum of 200 to comply with the FIA rules of the time....out and out purpose made rally cars....maximum power & handling capabilites...
WRC....the current WRC cars...derived from the road car with approved modications again santioned by the FIA....some components from the road car are retained(but not many)weight is restricted....turbo's restricted to 34mm to achieve 300 bhp...
JWRC....super 1600 cars Chris Meeke etc ....run in the Junior World Rally Championship....highly modified 1600 FWD..FIA homologated parts used.....
PWRC....all grp'n' cars....Alistair McCrae....Nial Mcshea etc
There is more to the regulations but thats it in a nutshell....
Grp 'n' showroom class....cars with limited modification from standard models....have to ratain things like trim...roof lining...limited on engine mods....smaller(32mm) restrictor...currently dominated by Mitsy and Subs...all cars have to comply with FIA national and international homologation rules...
Grp'a'....old flight top level cars highly modified from the road car but still have to comply with homologation rules laid down by FIA....all parts are submitted and approved...
Grp'b'....now outlawed in WRC and no longer homologated by the fia....still run(just) under the banner of the RAC MSA....these included Metro 6R4's, Pug T16...RS200....Audi etc....built in limited batches of a minimum of 200 to comply with the FIA rules of the time....out and out purpose made rally cars....maximum power & handling capabilites...
WRC....the current WRC cars...derived from the road car with approved modications again santioned by the FIA....some components from the road car are retained(but not many)weight is restricted....turbo's restricted to 34mm to achieve 300 bhp...
JWRC....super 1600 cars Chris Meeke etc ....run in the Junior World Rally Championship....highly modified 1600 FWD..FIA homologated parts used.....
PWRC....all grp'n' cars....Alistair McCrae....Nial Mcshea etc
There is more to the regulations but thats it in a nutshell....
Originally Posted by SimonT
No mate. Group N is "Production Class"
see here
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/events/0503scc_rally/
see here
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/events/0503scc_rally/
Group N has always confused me a bit cos it's such a random letter, lol
Group B was the best (while it lasted tho), lol
Peugeot made that monster 205 Turbo and of course, selling 200 205's was no problem
Audi made a beast version of the quattro, again it was a production car, so no worries selling 200 of 'em
Austin-Rover sold millions of metros, so the 6R4 got in
then Ford decided to build a car to decimate all. A bit like an off-road GT40, lol. So they did, the RS200. Went to sell 200, would have been easy cos it was by far the best car in there, but Ford did it arse-backwards, so when it crashed into a wall of spectators a few rallies later and injured a load of people, killed a few, the sport got banned for being so dangerous. Ford had 200 of the things to shift and that just happened to be the week that the stock market crashed. It never rains, but it pours, eh?
so who wants to buy a Ford with absolutely no rallying heritage for £50,000 in 1986 when everyone's skint, lol
a commercial disaster, but an iconic cult car worth a bomb now, lol
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Also don't forget that the homolagtion numbers for WRC are only 50, which enables manufactures like Seat etc to start building WRC cars.....
WRC cars over Group A are also based on the bodyshell, and have to retain the original silhouette, but engine and transmission is free to some degree.
Remember that Group A cars are based around an existing 4x4 turbocharged model, where WRC cars have no such restriction.
Listed as:
GROUP N
These cars have to be based on production models that have been built in numbers greater than 5000 units in order to get homologated. The GroupN cars are sometimes called production cars because they're supposed to be as close as possible to everyday, street cars. In fact the regulations are a bit vague and top GroupN cars have little in common with their street going counterparts. FIA regulations allow the following modifications to a GroupN car:
Modified front and rear suspension elements (dampers, springs) but geometry has to be maintained
Modified exhaust system, the catalytic converter has to be maintained
Modified engine management
More interestingly here's what you are not allowed to modify in a GroupN car:
Braking system the brake pads and hoses are free
Engine internals
Suspension layout and geometry (parts such as shocks and springs can be replaced as well as ride height)
Gearbox and gear ratios, the gears themselves can be replaced
Differentials
Final drive ratio
Note that these rules are subject to revision and changes relatively frequently. For more information please refer to the FIA complete guide to the allowed GroupN modifications here (Adobe Acrobat file).
Unfortunately the FIA GroupN is almost abandoned by the ruling authority. The above restrictions to the applicable modifications allowed in a GroupN car are subject to interpretation. The quality of a GroupN car can vary according to the owner's budget. For instance most winning GroupN cars are built from scratch using re-soldered seam-welded, works bodies (very expensive) whereas more affordable ones use normal everyday bodyshells. It is not rare to see GroupN cars equipped with turbo anti-lag systems even if the homologation cars are not equipped with one. Some GroupN cars are reputed more powerful than their GroupA counterparts...Worst even, it's not unusual to see GroupN car retiring from rallies with broken transmissions. I think that says it all. Overall the FIA GroupN is a hybrid between what GroupN was meant to be and the FIA GroupA.
To clarify the situation the FIA decided to modify the rules applicable to GroupN cars as of 2001. The major changes include:
Gearbox and gear ratios can be changed for stronger, possibly dog-style engagement ones (i.e. not using synchromeshes)
The dimensions of the brakes can be increased and calipers can be changed for multi pot ones
The transmission final drive ratios can be altered
Suspension geometry can vary and attachment point on the chassis can be relocated within 20mm
The rear sits can, finally, be removed
GROUP A
Most of today's top Group A (A8) cars have in common:
4 wheel drive transmissions
2 liter turbo charged engines (there's an FIA 1.7 engine displacement multiplication factor for turbo charged cars) using a 34mm turbo restrictor
Front mounted engines (longitudinal or transversal)
Minimum weight of 1230 Kg
Active differentials
Modifications allowed according to FIA GroupA regulations:
Full suspension geometry and layout. The original mounting points must be preserved within a 20mm radius
Engine internals including camshafts, crankshaft, valves. Other engine components can be machined. The engine bloc must be preserved
Engine peripherals (Radiators, intercoolers, ...)
Engine management
Braking system
Gearbox, gear ratios, number of gears and gear selection type
Differentials
Final drive ratio
Electric equipment
WRC CAR
WRC class cars where introduced in 1997 following a FIA decision. Experience has proven that to win the WRC title a car has to be full time 4WD and, to a lesser extend, use a 2lt turbocharged engine. Not all manufacturers have (or are willing to have) such models in their line up. Additionally mass producing such cars, as "homologation specials", is a risky financial adventure. This class of cars was thus introduced to allow any manufacturer to take part in the WRC with equal chances to success. The WRC class cars have to be produced to very limited numbers in order to get the required FIA homologation. Production numbers can be kept below 50 units (better still than back in the old Group B days where 200 units had to be produced). The typical WRC class car is based upon a large volume production model to which a manufacturer can modify or add the following:
Modified front and rear suspension layout and attachment points
Add-on turbocharger even if the production car does not have one
Modified transmission and additional transmission tunnels in order to fit a 4x4 transmission even if the production car is 2 wheel drive. Consequently differentials and gear box are free.
Modified engine intake and exhaust systems
Modified engine position (the engine can be relocated by a maximum of 20mm as compared to its original position and can be tilted by 20° around the crankshaft axis)
Modified wheelbase (±20mm) and track widths (1550mm max)
The maximum car width allowed is 1770 mm
Minimum length of 4000mm
WRC cars over Group A are also based on the bodyshell, and have to retain the original silhouette, but engine and transmission is free to some degree.
Remember that Group A cars are based around an existing 4x4 turbocharged model, where WRC cars have no such restriction.
Listed as:
GROUP N
These cars have to be based on production models that have been built in numbers greater than 5000 units in order to get homologated. The GroupN cars are sometimes called production cars because they're supposed to be as close as possible to everyday, street cars. In fact the regulations are a bit vague and top GroupN cars have little in common with their street going counterparts. FIA regulations allow the following modifications to a GroupN car:
Modified front and rear suspension elements (dampers, springs) but geometry has to be maintained
Modified exhaust system, the catalytic converter has to be maintained
Modified engine management
More interestingly here's what you are not allowed to modify in a GroupN car:
Braking system the brake pads and hoses are free
Engine internals
Suspension layout and geometry (parts such as shocks and springs can be replaced as well as ride height)
Gearbox and gear ratios, the gears themselves can be replaced
Differentials
Final drive ratio
Note that these rules are subject to revision and changes relatively frequently. For more information please refer to the FIA complete guide to the allowed GroupN modifications here (Adobe Acrobat file).
Unfortunately the FIA GroupN is almost abandoned by the ruling authority. The above restrictions to the applicable modifications allowed in a GroupN car are subject to interpretation. The quality of a GroupN car can vary according to the owner's budget. For instance most winning GroupN cars are built from scratch using re-soldered seam-welded, works bodies (very expensive) whereas more affordable ones use normal everyday bodyshells. It is not rare to see GroupN cars equipped with turbo anti-lag systems even if the homologation cars are not equipped with one. Some GroupN cars are reputed more powerful than their GroupA counterparts...Worst even, it's not unusual to see GroupN car retiring from rallies with broken transmissions. I think that says it all. Overall the FIA GroupN is a hybrid between what GroupN was meant to be and the FIA GroupA.
To clarify the situation the FIA decided to modify the rules applicable to GroupN cars as of 2001. The major changes include:
Gearbox and gear ratios can be changed for stronger, possibly dog-style engagement ones (i.e. not using synchromeshes)
The dimensions of the brakes can be increased and calipers can be changed for multi pot ones
The transmission final drive ratios can be altered
Suspension geometry can vary and attachment point on the chassis can be relocated within 20mm
The rear sits can, finally, be removed
GROUP A
Most of today's top Group A (A8) cars have in common:
4 wheel drive transmissions
2 liter turbo charged engines (there's an FIA 1.7 engine displacement multiplication factor for turbo charged cars) using a 34mm turbo restrictor
Front mounted engines (longitudinal or transversal)
Minimum weight of 1230 Kg
Active differentials
Modifications allowed according to FIA GroupA regulations:
Full suspension geometry and layout. The original mounting points must be preserved within a 20mm radius
Engine internals including camshafts, crankshaft, valves. Other engine components can be machined. The engine bloc must be preserved
Engine peripherals (Radiators, intercoolers, ...)
Engine management
Braking system
Gearbox, gear ratios, number of gears and gear selection type
Differentials
Final drive ratio
Electric equipment
WRC CAR
WRC class cars where introduced in 1997 following a FIA decision. Experience has proven that to win the WRC title a car has to be full time 4WD and, to a lesser extend, use a 2lt turbocharged engine. Not all manufacturers have (or are willing to have) such models in their line up. Additionally mass producing such cars, as "homologation specials", is a risky financial adventure. This class of cars was thus introduced to allow any manufacturer to take part in the WRC with equal chances to success. The WRC class cars have to be produced to very limited numbers in order to get the required FIA homologation. Production numbers can be kept below 50 units (better still than back in the old Group B days where 200 units had to be produced). The typical WRC class car is based upon a large volume production model to which a manufacturer can modify or add the following:
Modified front and rear suspension layout and attachment points
Add-on turbocharger even if the production car does not have one
Modified transmission and additional transmission tunnels in order to fit a 4x4 transmission even if the production car is 2 wheel drive. Consequently differentials and gear box are free.
Modified engine intake and exhaust systems
Modified engine position (the engine can be relocated by a maximum of 20mm as compared to its original position and can be tilted by 20° around the crankshaft axis)
Modified wheelbase (±20mm) and track widths (1550mm max)
The maximum car width allowed is 1770 mm
Minimum length of 4000mm
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From: Warsaw, Poland
Originally Posted by RichardPON
(WRC)
Modified front and rear suspension layout and attachment points
As far as I remember (this needs checking though) the only thing that must be retained is suspention system. I mean if it was McpHerson strut it must be McPherson strut and so on. It is said somethimes this is why ordinary Focus got it's multi-link suspention.
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group a and wrc are different as the grp a cars were more like the road going counterparts etc! more stringent ruling on that!
grp b: er....they didnt have to make 200 205 gtis!!!! they had to make 200 205 t16s! and after that they could make evolution models that were even more bonkers (think they only had to make 50 or so of these!)
grp b: er....they didnt have to make 200 205 gtis!!!! they had to make 200 205 t16s! and after that they could make evolution models that were even more bonkers (think they only had to make 50 or so of these!)
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From: Warsaw, Poland
Originally Posted by big_wig_074
group a and wrc are different as the grp a cars were more like the road going counterparts etc! more stringent ruling on that!
grp b: er....they didnt have to make 200 205 gtis!!!! they had to make 200 205 t16s! and after that they could make evolution models that were even more bonkers (think they only had to make 50 or so of these!)
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