Right,

I had the car ready for mot the other day and all of a sudden the sump gasket went, i think i over compressed it by going round and round the sump torquing it up.

Fine,

Just spend today changing the gasket and doing a few other small jobs and initially all seemed well, then.... massive leak

This time from around the crank seal carrier (fly wheel end), i stuck the gasket to the sump first, didn't over tighten anything (slightly over hand tight) urrrrrrrgggh!! Looks like the gasket slipped slightly on the half moon.

So, looks like i will have to wait until next weekend and do it all over.

What tips do people have? do i use sealant in the mating surfaces or not?

What torque setting should i use?

How many times should i re torque each bolt?

Cheers

 

Use a bit of sealant on the actual sump mate and wipe off all excess and let it set. This way when you put it onto the block the gasket should not slip out of place.

 

Not a bad tip matey, some one mentioned sticking the gasket to the block first THEN offering up the sump?

Rob,

 

would be easier on the sump imo

 

I've had this problem and tried several different ways, supergluing it to the sump, with sealant, without...

I think the key is not to overtighten, which is where I was going wrong. On my last (and successful) attempt I didn't use glue or sealant, but tightened it up with a 10mm socket on a screwdriver attachment. Previously I had used a small ratchet.

It's been on for 18 months now, and no sign of a leak

 

Sumps can just be a total pain in the arse cant they lol

My old c20xe vauxhall engines needed a new one every couple of months, will get one on perfect now and again.

 

Rob,

I've done this job about a dozen times - complete ball ache!
On my first build I had similar nightmares to you.

This build I've had to do it twice. Once when building the engine on a stand and it didn't leak. Then I had to remove the sump to check something so did it again and it didn't leak either (broke my heart removing my non leaking sump thinking it may never seal like that again but it did!)

This is what worked for me.

Genuine sump - wouldn't seal with a cheap non genuine one.

Obviously dry clean surfaces, use brake cleaner.

Sump on the deck I used a bead of sealer in each of the moons on the sump (similar to tiger seal)

Placed the gasket in and pressed the moons into location on the sump.

Then, thin bead of sealer on the gasket moons which would mate to the 'block'.
Offer up the sump carefully and check both moons are snug and the lengths of gasket fit evenly.

then, just pinched up the bolts uniformly working center out diagonally.

then I went round again a couple of times nipping them all up with a small 1/4 drive. I didn't use the torque settings as these never worked for me.

Thats what I have done and its worked successfully for me. The test is when you start running decent boost and mine has been leak free with 26psi up it.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it is.

Dan

 

Cheers guys, i'll just give it another bash. Such a pain as i was booked in for its first MOT in over two years today would have been quite a mile stone!

Rob,

 

Cheers Dan, thats essentially what i did EXCEPT im on a non gen sump, im fairly sure i knocked the half moon when i fitted it

The worst bit about it is cleaning off old sealant!

Rob,

 

Good advice and exactly how i found it best to tackle the job.....which was always a total headache lol!
It's always the half moons that leak and the flywheel end is the hardest to get to sit in the groove.
Payen gasket, leave the sump off overnight so no oil drips when you're offering up the sump....sump degreased and the gasket carefully glued to the sump making sure the holes line up, i used to put a few bolts through to make sure it stayed in line......let it go off, and a smear of sealer on the block face after degreasing and in particular the half moons.... then offer it up once without letting it slide around so the gasket can't work free....then hand tighten and use as said a screwdriver type socket driver, just nip them all up first then i found best to go from one end of the sump towards the other tightening a little bit at a time until they all feel just nipped up!
Tighten half a turn ONCE more after a couple of hundred miles and that's it, it'll feel like you can keep nipping them up forever but resist the tempatation as you'll crush the gasket and end up with leaks!!
I found genuine 'nissan' gasket sealer the best by far to use after someone recommended it to me (if you can get hold of it as it's bloody pricey lol), it sets almost hard and is very thick and sticky so doesn't allow the gasket to slde around like the usual silicone type sealers

 

I've heard that genuine VW gasket sealer is really good to use as well.

I have the joy of doing mine soon

 

No problem and good luck mate. If it keeps giving you grief I would bite the bullet and get a genuine sump. I'm convinced my brand new, non genuine sump was my leak link. Trust me before I changed sumps I tried every method and should have had shares in payen! Lol

 

Oh and as said, sealer was a non silicone based job. I.e. Tiger. I tried the Vw stuff which is awesome on Vw sumps (cast ali) but didn't help me on this.

 

ive never had a problem myself with cvh sumps and ive fit plenty but have heard of people having trouble
all i do is superglue the half moons to the sump a tiny blob of "curil" sealent on the corners of the moons and the rest of the gasket dry then tightened from the centre outwards and im yet to have one leak "touch wood!"
i would always use a genuine sump over non gen as ive found non gen sumps tend to not have a baffle in them

 

Had the same problem with mine! Defo one of the biggest pain in the arse jobs when owning a rs turbo! .. some very good advice above tho!

 

it's easy - when you do it like this:

Sealant - you ONLY need it in each corner where the block meets the rear seal and oil pump. Just smear the four corners on the engine. However, before this, you need some m4 (6?) studs. Or, get some more sump bolts and cut the heads off. Screw about 5 or 6 studs in finger tight. Use these to locate your gasket. Fit bolts, then remove studs and fit remainder of bolts.

Don't start smearing sealant everywhere, it will eventually find its way into the pick up.

Rick

 

I won't bore you with another "how-to" as there are plenty of people on here already who know what they are doing. But - Personally i superglued with 1 or 2 tiny drops the gasket to the sump pan and then carefully re-fitted it making sure as i positioned it the gasket still protruded slightly all the way around and didn't do it up overly tight!

Its a nightmare job - good old Henry Ford eh lol!

Good luck!

 

Is there a torque setting in any workshop manuals for the sump bolts?

 

Cheers again guys, lots of good suggestions. The real pain is it was totally leak free every where else just not where i knocked the gasket Rick and Roger thanks

Im beginning to think that liberal use of sealant won't be necessary and that proper positioning of the sump is key.

Rick, good idea about using the studding to line up the sump up when fitting!

There is, i forget what it is but lots of people seem to find it excessive.

Rob,

 

Yep myn still leaks after 3 Tried always! Own fault had take it off as I dropped a valve collet into sump :-(

 

My two pence worth...
No sealant at all, glue to block, bolt up sump in sequence and to correct torque.

 

Cheers guys, Karlos, how many times do you torque each bolt, do you go round just once?

Rob,

 

I probably go round at least 3 times, but paying close attention to the gasket in case it starts to squish out! Loctite is a must too or they will come undone again and leak.

 

RTF Industrial silicon sealer the gasket to the block with couple bolts to hold in place, leave overnight to dry then offer up sump and as said use bit of loctite and torque to about 5 nm if memory serves correctly

Oh and genuine gasket only

 

Thought i would give an update and say thank you for all the responses!

Finally (3RD time lucky) the sump seems to be leak free ****Trying not to temp fate ****

I used a combination of suggestions from above so should say thanks to every one.

Here's what i did for in case anyone stumbles across this thread and has already tried every thing.

1) Strip and remove ALL old sealant especially from and around the half moons
2) Clean mating surfaces using degreaser and acetone.
3) Use spray mount to attach the nice new payen gasket to the engine block
4) Use appropriate studding in four corners to align the sump (and stop the gasket from being knocked out of line)
5) Install the sump and tighten all bolts using a screw driver, starting in the centre and working outwards.
6) Run your fingers round the outside of the sump and make sure the gasket hasn't been pushed out anywhere.
7) Go round the sump and torque up all bolts (to 5NM) after thread locking all bolts. (I use loctite 243, medium strength, vibration resistant etc)
8) repeat step 7 ONCE.
9) Pray, and drive


Rob,

 

I've done loads of CVH sump gaskets with out issue, until I came to do my own! Couldn't for the life of me get that thing to seal! Threw the sump away and bought another in the end. I have a slight weeping from the rear main now I think but I can live with that as it doesn't leave any drips on the floor in the garage so it can't be that bad.

 

Mines just gone too after a month fitted

Going to give it a go tomorrow, can anyone reccomend how long i should give for fitting?

Cheers
Jimmyc

 

2-3 hours if you need to clean old silicone shit off.

Maybe less, exhaust off, starter off gives you a bit more room but isn't necessary.

Rob,

 

Cheers Rob

 

No worries, thats if none of your bolts are seized! but if it was done a month ago you should be fine.

Its cleaning old sealant off properly that takes ages.

Rob,

 

in 2 days a gone to do this my engine is in the bay i have the exhaut and starter off

need to clean the old silicon sealer

i think i gone do it like this

the block is clean
and the i put 4 screws on all corner of the new sump seal to center it first on the engine bloc and fix it with super glue
wait that it is good fixed and care that it is on goood place and take the 4 srew off

than put silicion sealer on it and fixe the sump

good idee? but the problem is that there gone a be only on one side silicon seal

 

Dont use silicone mate, fit it dry IME.

 

No silicone as per Karlos worked (so far!) perfectly for me.

The problem imo with the silicone is that before it sets it acts as a lubricant, as you clamp the gasket up, if its very slightly pissed the 'lubricant' lets the gasket slip out.

This can be especially bad if you start the engine before the silicone has cured.

So... go with out

 

With IMO just in the corners and I put a dab around the sump half moons too!

Always put it on the block first though

Rob, am I right in thinking I was speaking to you about bc gearboxes?

 

Ib5 I mean but yeah both boxes!

 

You were buddy, i have one fitted to mine. You have one too btw... had a sneeky look at central day

Rob,

 

At least i think i was checking yours out!

 

Lol! Red escort, black bay with scs sticker on inlet? White dymags!

 

Lol.. It was your car, if my memory works allright it was an IB5.

Easy to tell, few good pics in this thread https://passionford.com/forum/ford-e...lp-please.html

Rob,

 

Mines a bc then I think! Looks similar, has front starter but dosntnhave the five ribs down the front inky has two or three

I thought ib5 had rear starter?

I've been given a ib5 not got it yet mind, out of a 1.7 puma, would that be direct fit with front or back starter?

Also whats the advantage/disadvantages!?

Sorry for all the Q's illpm you if easier?