Hi all,

I have a historic Formula First single seater that is currently powered by a dry sumped 1.6 cvh putting out 113hp (dyno'd)

Anyhoo, i am upgrading to rs turbo power but my knowledge of tuning is with other marques and tbh, i am a bit lost with what to do to get the most reliable power from the RST engine. so hopefully you will be able to point me in the right direction.

The engine block i am going with has forged pistons/rods with a nice cam/verniers CNC'd head, balanced crank, arp bolts etc so that is up to the job. it comes with an efi intake, and that is it.

What turbo should i go for? - i am assuming the best power/psi is from a modern GT series ball bearing turbo like a GT25 hung off a tubular manifold, what are the flow characteristics of the engine like, will a bigger turbo just take forever to boost.

Most importantly, what are my options with regard to engine management, as mentioned earlier, i will have the efi intake manifold, what is the usual route to tuning these engines and most importantly, what is reliable, i just want to fit and forget (within reason) does the standard ecu have the 'definition' and fine control necessary to run the engine safely, or should i go aftermarket (and if so, what) i would like a safe 220-250hp, i will be fitting my existing dry sump oil system to the car, does the rst have greater oil needs than the n/a engine or are they identical?

Any links/info you could give me would be greatly appreciated, if you are interested, below are a couple of pics of the car, if there is anything specific you would like me to snap, feel free to ask

Greg

 

Good Stuff

 

Hi mate,

Followed your link through from resto section.

What ratios are you using / what max-rpm and power band are you aiming for? This will of course affect the choice of turbo and your manifold design to an extent.

If it were me, I'd be using something slightly over-sized e.g. GT28RS .76 a/r, which will still be keeping up with the engine at 8krpm, and get a decent boost controller to stop it spiking/surging too much at lower rpm. Should end up with a 4krpm power band pretty easily, and a smooth delivery aiding traction and helping out the transmission

I would be tempted to go with megasquirt for management for something simple like this. It's cheap, easy to operate and does everything you need it to.

Have you thought about charge cooling? Is it running twin rads at the mo or is a side pop free for intercooler use?

Chris

 

How cool! even better in black

if i had that fella i would fit Cosworth Management like a L6 ECU a std ERST engine using a std T3 and a decent made intercooler for the design and use of your motor, this would get at least 230bhp. If your having a bigger engine made then expect closer to 300bhp with a decent turbo.

I have the same setup as described in my own track cars although they are fwd with 850kg which is 250kg over yours i guess.

 

cheers for the input chris. I used a disco potato on my old mx5 (GT2860RS)

what does the .76 bit mean, i don't understand turbos THAT well. a tutorial would be great

I won't be pushing the revs too high, 7-7500 will be pretty much it, engine wear becomes an issue much above that and my car will live in the top quarter of the rev range.

Megasquirt sounds like a winner, i've secretly been wanting to build one of those for quite a while.

Both side pods are currently used as rads, although the rear clam has room for big vents that face right into the wind flow, so i shall be putting my intercooler there

Greg

 

Why invest money in a 30 year old 8 valve 1600cc engine if youre looking for driveability? None of the standard components will be of much use to you anyway and I doubt there is a huge price difference between zetec turbo pistons and CVH ones.....

Unless there is some fundamental reason like the head wont physically fit in the car id stop spending money flogging a dead horse.

 

oh and in case anyone is wondering what the lights are on the back, i am mid way through making it road legal, that will get a few looks!!!

FYI VC, the car currently weighs 380kg wet, just over 400 is the aim when finished. With a nice reliable 250hp, it will equate to 625bhp/ton. It should be able to get out of it's own way

 

you make very valid points alistair, i am going for cvh for several reasons:

all the engine mounts, gearbox linkages, rads etc will bolt right up, saving a ton of time fabbing everything again - why reinvent the wheel, i'm not chip foose lol.

i am buying an already built engine for significantly less than it would cost to build, so it is a relatively cheap option.

as mentioned above, 250 hp will be everything i can ever use on track with this particular chassis, any more and slicks and wings become a necessity, the chassis is not designed for that!

Emissions - for SVA, an old engine is advantageous

 

If your staying CVH then with the above spec I'd go tubular and a GT28RS, A Newmans cam with solids, and Megasquirt.

 

Hey Greg - the .76 is the exhaust side a/r figure. Stu @ MSD has written some great articles explaining turbos way better and in more detail than I could - http://www.motorsport-developments.co.uk/stus.html

Chris

 

Zetec block should share mountings, take the same gearbox flange etc. Pipework will need done again but thats hardly a big issue.

Already built to what spec, do you know precisely whats inside it and what condition its in? Personally I wouldnt trust an engine someone else built without at least stripping it for inspection.

I dont disagree, but Id rather have 250bhp out of 2.0l than 250bhp out of 1.6 litres any day of the week. Im building a locost with a 2.3 litre engine for driveability!

Sva is dead, IVA from now on and afaik any engine before 1995 is fine which means an early zetec will also be fine.

be careful using it on the road, none of the suspension components were build to last, nor designed with potholes in mind.

 

cool race car, keep it steel cvh and 250hp more than enough

 

Great project, and oh my god that will be an exciting drive on the public road, let alone a track!

Good luck

Tom

 

great looking project and ideas
you can make a very reponsive engine out of the 1600cvh if your going for around 250bhp

 

go for a aftermarket management like gotech or omex as its as cheap as getting cossy management done then the turbo choice is endless.

a stage 3 t3 would do the power you want all day long and a t34 would do a lot more and you would save alot of money over a gt series turbo.... and if you are on track where you are always flat out you aint realy got to worry about lag that much.

i know a place you can get a stage3 t3 for around £500 brand new and out right and you can buy gotech for around £700/800 for a whole kit or bolt in the engine and go to jamsport and they will fit and mapp the management all in from around £1300 to £1500 , and thats tow in drive out lol

 

If I was going for 250bhp id not be buying a new turbo. Mitsubishi TD04s come up regularly on ebay for £50 and will do 300bhp easily if you get the right one.

I also wouldnt choose gotech as Ive heard of too many problems. Whats the crank sensor on the cvh like?