Cosworth fuelling.
08-06-2018, 07:16 PM
#1
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Cosworth fuelling.
Sierra 3dr cossie on autronic sm4 management.
car has sat for 3 months, was running perfectly.
Now the engine is just cranking and there is no heartbeat whatsoever
Engine has standard reluctor crank sensor, escos small turbo sync sensor in place of distributor, vw coil on plugs, 403 injectors, 044 pump. Wiring loom is in good nick.
All fuses and relays checked.
I have spark on all 4 cylinders and the plugs get wet with petrol
i have map and logs if anyone is interested
car has sat for 3 months, was running perfectly.
Now the engine is just cranking and there is no heartbeat whatsoever
Engine has standard reluctor crank sensor, escos small turbo sync sensor in place of distributor, vw coil on plugs, 403 injectors, 044 pump. Wiring loom is in good nick.
All fuses and relays checked.
I have spark on all 4 cylinders and the plugs get wet with petrol
i have map and logs if anyone is interested
08-06-2018, 07:39 PM
#2
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I wonder if it coould be crank position sensor or hall sensor if you still have distributor BUT before that check fuel level and if low brim the tank, if high drain and use fresh as modern fuel has a shelf life of just 3 months. My Cossie would not start after 6 months of sitting, new fuel and it started.
08-06-2018, 08:08 PM
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Crank sensor is fine, i can see that on my laptop. And theres fresh fuel in it. Thats the problem, i cant see anything wrong from the laptop with the sensors, trigger events etc
08-06-2018, 08:12 PM
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Very odd, if you have spark timing and fuel it should go bang
08-06-2018, 08:14 PM
#5
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Where is rendalen? I wonder if Mark Shead could look at it as he knows Autronic
08-06-2018, 08:36 PM
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Agree, but still something is off. And i cant work my head around it.
i am from norway, so is a bit far to go to uk with a cossiie on a trailer
i am from norway, so is a bit far to go to uk with a cossiie on a trailer
Last edited by Roger Wardenaer; 08-06-2018 at 08:38 PM.
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11-06-2018, 11:25 AM
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New plugs, no go, not even attempting. It has spark, checked timing. And the plugs get wet. Only thing i noticed is that with full throttle, the engine sometimes barks through the inlet while cranking.
Post 3 http://www.mrm-racing.se/forum/forum...083-spark-gone contain logs.
suggestions?
Post 3 http://www.mrm-racing.se/forum/forum...083-spark-gone contain logs.
suggestions?
Last edited by Roger Wardenaer; 11-06-2018 at 02:27 PM.
11-06-2018, 03:15 PM
#10
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Would it be worth checking the main engine earth by adding a big jump lead from engine to battery negative to rule that out...just wondering if the spark was too weak due to poor earth?
Surely if timing is correct, there is fuel (fresh) and spark then only compression could be left to question unless there is something like I had where the hall sensor had come unplugged inside the distributor.
Could it be a shit batch of fuel?
Surely if timing is correct, there is fuel (fresh) and spark then only compression could be left to question unless there is something like I had where the hall sensor had come unplugged inside the distributor.
Could it be a shit batch of fuel?
11-06-2018, 05:00 PM
#15
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Being aftermarket, how is it reading cam position? Hall on distributor or cam sensor on cam cover? Have you checked the hall is good connection?
11-06-2018, 05:41 PM
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Cam position is done by escos eeciv sensor where the distributor normally goes. Its readout is normal. I can see all trigger innputs and all outputs ie fuel an ignition etc on screen. I have double checked ignition witm timing light, 16 deg btdc. Map sensor is internal and shows correct reading, 98,5 kPa at engine off.
12-06-2018, 07:14 AM
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Tried a jumper from battery to engine, all the same. When i test the plugs against turbo damper support i would say i see a normal spark. The only thing changed on the car during winter is a new 044 fuelpump, with somewhat higher output than my previous pump (pierburg, cant remember flowrate)
But even with a high rich mixture, the engine should try to start.
Things left to try: change ecu, exorcism?
But even with a high rich mixture, the engine should try to start.
Things left to try: change ecu, exorcism?
12-06-2018, 06:24 PM
#19
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It sounds like you are very competent but sometimes we need a fresh set of eyes on a problem so I would ask a cossie specialist to run through each item with an open mind and do not tell them what it is not, I.e. let them problem solve it from the ground up....it is bound to be something very simple.
12-06-2018, 08:19 PM
#23
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Check fuel pressure then check fuel squirting out of injectors correctly and then check fuel if flammable. Any testing like this should be done carefully as flammable liquid
Mark
Mark
17-06-2018, 12:08 PM
#24
remove plugs, spin engine over with injectors disabled to try and remove any fuel that may be lying in there, hold throttle open so plenty of air.
At the same time, spin the engine over ( plug on lead and grounded, but not in engine just so it spins faster ) and hook up a timing light to cyl1 and see if you are getting spark that would be at a time sensible enough to actually allow starting.
I assume the engine can get air ok ?
Compression test ?
Easy Start ?
At the same time, spin the engine over ( plug on lead and grounded, but not in engine just so it spins faster ) and hook up a timing light to cyl1 and see if you are getting spark that would be at a time sensible enough to actually allow starting.
I assume the engine can get air ok ?
Compression test ?
Easy Start ?
17-06-2018, 06:04 PM
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Engine cranks over at 250 rpm with plugs in, around 350 without. I have checked ignition timing om cyl 1 and it maches what i have om screen 16 deg. Conpression is good and even. Airfilter is clean and so are intercooler and plumbing.
Question: can a higher output fuelpump (941 to 044) make a so significant change in fuelpressure that the engine wont start?
I have tet to check fuel pressure. Injectors checked in testrig and ok.
have tried easy start, no luck. In fact, i had backfire when i tried It and burned ny hand...
Question: can a higher output fuelpump (941 to 044) make a so significant change in fuelpressure that the engine wont start?
I have tet to check fuel pressure. Injectors checked in testrig and ok.
have tried easy start, no luck. In fact, i had backfire when i tried It and burned ny hand...
Last edited by Roger Wardenaer; 17-06-2018 at 06:10 PM.
17-06-2018, 06:46 PM
#26
What effect a bigger pump will have will depend on whatever lines, regulator etc are used.
But in most cases I would say it would be incredibly unlikely that is the cause of non starting.
And when connected to the ecu, do all sensors appear normal ?
You seem to have very good cranking rpm....presumably the ecu is also happy with the crank/cam triggers it is seeing ?
Can you pull the fuel rail including injectors out of the inlet manifold and do a cranking test to get a visual on the injectors firing ?
You say no other work or changes were made at all from when it previously ran...until now ( other than fuel pump ) ?
Have you tried re-loading a known working map back into the ecu, in case somehow yours has become corrupted ?
But in most cases I would say it would be incredibly unlikely that is the cause of non starting.
And when connected to the ecu, do all sensors appear normal ?
You seem to have very good cranking rpm....presumably the ecu is also happy with the crank/cam triggers it is seeing ?
Can you pull the fuel rail including injectors out of the inlet manifold and do a cranking test to get a visual on the injectors firing ?
You say no other work or changes were made at all from when it previously ran...until now ( other than fuel pump ) ?
Have you tried re-loading a known working map back into the ecu, in case somehow yours has become corrupted ?
17-06-2018, 07:01 PM
#27
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Just the fuelpump. All sensor read normal, and all trigger and output events are normal. I have tried to upload a Ťnewť map, copy from my tuner when he made it.
but how likely is it that all 4 injectors get fooked simultaneously?
but how likely is it that all 4 injectors get fooked simultaneously?
17-06-2018, 07:06 PM
#28
I'm not saying the injectors are a problem.
I'm saying to get a visual on what the injectors are doing, so you can confirm they are spraying as you would expect.
You've confirmed ignition/sparks on at least cylinder 1 and at a time that should alloow starting.
You say all 4 plugs are brand new....so I assume you've also then confirmed spark on all 4 cylinders during cranking ? ( if plugs are wet/soaked, do not even try and use them, at least until you know the engine will start and run )
You say plenty of air is available.
It has good compression...
Fuel...air...sparks.....it should be making some attempt to start or fire.
I'm saying to get a visual on what the injectors are doing, so you can confirm they are spraying as you would expect.
You've confirmed ignition/sparks on at least cylinder 1 and at a time that should alloow starting.
You say all 4 plugs are brand new....so I assume you've also then confirmed spark on all 4 cylinders during cranking ? ( if plugs are wet/soaked, do not even try and use them, at least until you know the engine will start and run )
You say plenty of air is available.
It has good compression...
Fuel...air...sparks.....it should be making some attempt to start or fire.
18-06-2018, 04:36 AM
#29
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Spark on all 4 yes, but ive seen that even if you have spark with the plugs out, that doesent mean that you have spark in the cylinders due compression of the air.
But i will pull the injectors and fire them and see. They are 403,s so i guess the spray pattern is more like a hose?
But i will pull the injectors and fire them and see. They are 403,s so i guess the spray pattern is more like a hose?
18-06-2018, 08:26 AM
#30
It should be pretty obvious when cranking if the visible spark is weak or strong.
Or visual indicators like this are cheap
I'm more interested that the injectors are firing....to a degree how much fuel they are injecting and that they are firing in sequence.
Just in case something bizarre is happening that they might just be dumping fuel in, or not at all. With OEM rails the injectors are secured in with clips so it should be relatively easy to remove the entire unit for a visual test.
Or visual indicators like this are cheap
I'm more interested that the injectors are firing....to a degree how much fuel they are injecting and that they are firing in sequence.
Just in case something bizarre is happening that they might just be dumping fuel in, or not at all. With OEM rails the injectors are secured in with clips so it should be relatively easy to remove the entire unit for a visual test.
18-06-2018, 06:26 PM
#31
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Injection timing is 450 degrees during cranking. Firing sequence is correct, tested with a 4 channel oscilloscope, will try to pull the rail and injectors later.
spark is clearly visible and is ok.
spark is clearly visible and is ok.
Last edited by Roger Wardenaer; 18-06-2018 at 06:30 PM.
18-06-2018, 06:57 PM
#32
It certainly sounds like it has everything to start and run.
Sure you havent just done something silly like plug leads on wrong ? ( assuming dizzy still in place etc )
Sure you havent just done something silly like plug leads on wrong ? ( assuming dizzy still in place etc )
18-06-2018, 07:33 PM
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Dont have a dizzy, 4 coils on the plugs. Checked firing order on them aswell... maybe i should get a second set of eyes on it after all as this is a funny puzzle. It doesent even attempts, not a single cough. And that is what surprises me,
18-06-2018, 09:06 PM
#34
That's again a good reason why it would be nice to get a visual on fuel injection during cranking. It's all good and well sensors and scopes saying all the signals are correct.....but in strange cases like this, it's good to see with your own eyes.
Likewise sparks on all 4 cylinders.
But again, if plugs have been soaked at all...bin them. They could be part of the problem. Throw some new cheap ones in if needed until it will run
Likewise sparks on all 4 cylinders.
But again, if plugs have been soaked at all...bin them. They could be part of the problem. Throw some new cheap ones in if needed until it will run
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