Discussion on Cossie understeer and Rear Beams (title edited
03-11-2006, 03:31 PM
#1
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Discussion on Cossie understeer and Rear Beams (title edited
Hi All
Having returned from a relatively successful trip to the Nurburgring, I have yet another renewed vigour to improve the handling of the Cossie, in particular hoping to reduce the overwhelming levels of understeer.
I know that this is not easy to achieve, but at the mo I am struggling to get a strategy!
So far, the intention is maintenace of bushes (which wont help at all, but must be done), and replacement of existing suspension with coilovers.
I have heard bits and pieces, but I would be really grateful for anyone who can help me improve the old girl!
thanks
JJ
Having returned from a relatively successful trip to the Nurburgring, I have yet another renewed vigour to improve the handling of the Cossie, in particular hoping to reduce the overwhelming levels of understeer.
I know that this is not easy to achieve, but at the mo I am struggling to get a strategy!
So far, the intention is maintenace of bushes (which wont help at all, but must be done), and replacement of existing suspension with coilovers.
I have heard bits and pieces, but I would be really grateful for anyone who can help me improve the old girl!
thanks
JJ
03-11-2006, 03:35 PM
#2
Team HOTHOT!
Soften the front suspension slightly and stiffen the rear - will induce some nice oversteer when pushed hard 
Adjustable TCA's and compression struts go a long way in helping the geometry and handelling of the car too
Also another thing that a lot of people overlook, and is so simple - fit better tyres!
Adjustable TCA's and compression struts go a long way in helping the geometry and handelling of the car too
Also another thing that a lot of people overlook, and is so simple - fit better tyres!
03-11-2006, 03:50 PM
#3
Originally Posted by Graceland
Soften the front suspension slightly and stiffen the rear - will induce some nice oversteer when pushed hard
Adjustable TCA's and compression struts go a long way in helping the geometry and handelling of the car too
Also another thing that a lot of people overlook, and is so simple - fit better tyres!
Adjustable TCA's and compression struts go a long way in helping the geometry and handelling of the car too
Also another thing that a lot of people overlook, and is so simple - fit better tyres!
. This is the attmpted quick fix that most people do to Cossies, and it just DOES NOT WORK 
.The reason why Cossies understeer is due to the REAR beam which has completely different roll centre to the front set up, suffers from horrendous bump steer and has no camber or toe adjustment.
The BEST thing you can do to any Cosworth is FIRST fit a 6° adjustable rear beam (either Zoo or Ahmed's). This will drastically remove a HUGE amount of the understeer. Once you have done that, THEN concentrate on optimising the geometry with adjustable front TCAs and if possible 3-door front hubs and knuckles.
I would not recommend compression struts on ANY road car, UNLESS you are retaing an anti-roll bar, because to remove this means you have to run massively heavy duty springs to prevent the roll. This then means the car is RUBBISH on anything other than a billiard smooth track (which means it will be SHIT at the 'Ring
).I would personally keep the Konis (albeit have them on their hardest setting) and fit a set of Ahmed's springs, the rear beam and some adjustable TCAs. Optimise the geometry, relearn how the car drives and then if you feel it needs to be stiffer, the only way to do it is with a decent coil-over kit (NOT the cheap £500 option, as you're wasting your time), springs that aren't too hard (my car on softest setting is like Koni's on their hardest).
Obviously I can supply you with anything you need, but I don't think you should compromise in this area, so only sell things that I KNOW to work
.The one thing I do agree on, is to fit the best tyres you can afford
.
03-11-2006, 04:06 PM
#4
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Wow - a comprehensive answer!
So I am slightly failing to understand the significance of the 3 door front hubs and knuckles. I was labouring under the clearly false illusion that they were the same as my 2wd saph. Clearly wrong!
The only track work she does at the mo is the Nurburgring, which is her main role these days. I hadnt entertained removing the antiroll bar.
So what I understand is that the first spend is the rear beam? Mike can you pm me a price for the bit in question, and what concerns me about any adjustable piece is that it is correctly adjusted.
And then - learn to drive - again
So I am slightly failing to understand the significance of the 3 door front hubs and knuckles. I was labouring under the clearly false illusion that they were the same as my 2wd saph. Clearly wrong!
The only track work she does at the mo is the Nurburgring, which is her main role these days. I hadnt entertained removing the antiroll bar.
So what I understand is that the first spend is the rear beam? Mike can you pm me a price for the bit in question, and what concerns me about any adjustable piece is that it is correctly adjusted.
And then - learn to drive - again
03-11-2006, 04:17 PM
#6
The 3-door was homologated for racing so has superior front suspension geometry achieved with an extended knuckle on the bottom of the hub and unique to the 3-door TCAs. This means the front has vastly improved bump steer, as the TCA is angled better and it's movement up and down doesn't give randomnly adjustable geometry like on the Sapphire. The only problem is that these are like rocking horse shit . You only need the hubs though, as you can still get adjustable TCAs to suit the 3-doors castle-ated (sp) nut hub fitment.
If you only do track work at the Ring, then I would stick with the Konis, so that is one area you can scrub off your shopping list. However, I would recommend Ahmed's springs to suit the Konis, the rear beam and setting up the geometry using laser alignment equipment.
The Zoo rear beam is £650 + delivery (exchange) for the strapped "rally" version, plus an additional £150 if you want the Motorsport rose joints.
. You only need the hubs though, as you can still get adjustable TCAs to suit the 3-doors castle-ated (sp) nut hub fitment.If you only do track work at the Ring, then I would stick with the Konis, so that is one area you can scrub off your shopping list. However, I would recommend Ahmed's springs to suit the Konis, the rear beam and setting up the geometry using laser alignment equipment.
The Zoo rear beam is £650 + delivery (exchange) for the strapped "rally" version, plus an additional £150 if you want the Motorsport rose joints.
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03-11-2006, 04:21 PM
#8
I know I am new to the FORD tuning world, however I have been envolved in Motorsport (Touring cars and F1) for many years.
If it was me I would start on the front wheel toe setting, this will start your turn into the corner, depending on the amount of toe-out or toe-in, you will be able to dial in a really responsive inital turn in, and not just feel understeer.
Then then next problem is the rear as describe in the above post, road car manufactures build in safe handaling by allowing the rear wheels of the car to "toe-in" on bump (this creates understeer) there is not a lot you can do about it. But if you could you would dial in more toe-out which will give you very good inital turn in (and poor high speed stability), but revert back to understeer once the car has taken a "set" in the corner.
S.
If it was me I would start on the front wheel toe setting, this will start your turn into the corner, depending on the amount of toe-out or toe-in, you will be able to dial in a really responsive inital turn in, and not just feel understeer.
Then then next problem is the rear as describe in the above post, road car manufactures build in safe handaling by allowing the rear wheels of the car to "toe-in" on bump (this creates understeer) there is not a lot you can do about it. But if you could you would dial in more toe-out which will give you very good inital turn in (and poor high speed stability), but revert back to understeer once the car has taken a "set" in the corner.
S.
03-11-2006, 04:34 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Actually forget everything I said, I don't want people to have cars that are equally good handling to mine, because at the moment, people think I'm a good driver and don't realise it's the car .
.JJ
03-11-2006, 04:37 PM
#10
Touring cars with their fully rose jointed set ups are a world apart from shonky Cossies, even a fully poly bushed items still suffer from bush deflection.
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle).
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle)
.
03-11-2006, 04:43 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Touring cars with their fully rose jointed set ups are a world apart from shonky Cossies, even a fully poly bushed items still suffer from bush deflection.
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle).
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle)
.S.
03-11-2006, 04:48 PM
#12
Originally Posted by sas
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Touring cars with their fully rose jointed set ups are a world apart from shonky Cossies, even a fully poly bushed items still suffer from bush deflection.
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle).
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle)
.S.
, but the one I had before that was 515bhp and 2wd and also had a lot of time and money spent on it's chassis. In fact, it was more "fun" to drive than the Escort (due to the fact that you steered it with your right foot ), just not as quick on a circuit (too much power for the grip levels - even with 235 rear tyres - hilarious though ).
03-11-2006, 04:51 PM
#13
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OKay so time for a shopping list of bits; We will keep this fluid till we get to the other end
1. Zoo Strapped rear adjustible beam - £650
2. Adjustable Rose Joints - £150
3. Improved Springs for existing shocks Leda Ahmed jobbies (bloody typical - just replaced them recently with AVOs!!!)
4. Adjustible TCAs
Now what about the front hubs? Just how much of a compromise are the existing hubs, and what can I do about them if I cant get 3 door hubs?
JJ
1. Zoo Strapped rear adjustible beam - £650
2. Adjustable Rose Joints - £150
3. Improved Springs for existing shocks Leda Ahmed jobbies (bloody typical - just replaced them recently with AVOs!!!)
4. Adjustible TCAs
Now what about the front hubs? Just how much of a compromise are the existing hubs, and what can I do about them if I cant get 3 door hubs?
JJ
03-11-2006, 05:02 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Touring cars with their fully rose jointed set ups are a world apart from shonky Cossies, even a fully poly bushed items still suffer from bush deflection.
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle).
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle)
.
Set ups are all about the indiviual car (all unique) and the only way to set them up properly is to experiment as you have.
The one thing that I am suprised about is the toe-in on the front, you would think that as the front wheels are driven, when you are under power the wheels pull forward into the wheel arch exadurating (I cant spell) the toe-in. But it obviosly works for you and your car.
S.
03-11-2006, 05:34 PM
#16
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mike
would i benefit in using a zoo rear beam on my rs200 (replica)spaceframe chassis running 4x4 cossie.
i want to get the brakes and suspension right first time,not fit something then replace for better bits.
do you have any pic`s,just so i can see if 1 fits
cheers
dave
would i benefit in using a zoo rear beam on my rs200 (replica)spaceframe chassis running 4x4 cossie.
i want to get the brakes and suspension right first time,not fit something then replace for better bits.
do you have any pic`s,just so i can see if 1 fits
cheers
dave
03-11-2006, 05:39 PM
#17
Originally Posted by sas
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Touring cars with their fully rose jointed set ups are a world apart from shonky Cossies, even a fully poly bushed items still suffer from bush deflection.
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle).
Cossies actually like static toe-in. Mine has 2mm front and 3mm rear and is beautifully neutral (can be adjusted mid-corner on the throttle)
. Set ups are all about the indiviual car (all unique) and the only way to set them up properly is to experiment as you have.
The one thing that I am suprised about is the toe-in on the front, you would think that as the front wheels are driven, when you are under power the wheels pull forward into the wheel arch exadurating (I cant spell) the toe-in. But it obviosly works for you and your car.
S.
.
03-11-2006, 05:40 PM
#18
Originally Posted by banhambuilt
mike
would i benefit in using a zoo rear beam on my rs200 (replica)spaceframe chassis running 4x4 cossie.
i want to get the brakes and suspension right first time,not fit something then replace for better bits.
do you have any pic`s,just so i can see if 1 fits
cheers
dave
would i benefit in using a zoo rear beam on my rs200 (replica)spaceframe chassis running 4x4 cossie.
i want to get the brakes and suspension right first time,not fit something then replace for better bits.
do you have any pic`s,just so i can see if 1 fits
cheers
dave
03-11-2006, 05:45 PM
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thanks for that mike
yes it has all cossie bits bolted onto the frame
is it something you carry in stock?
do you have any pic`s,always nice to see what i need to buy,a sort of tempter as you say
dave
yes it has all cossie bits bolted onto the frame
is it something you carry in stock?
do you have any pic`s,always nice to see what i need to buy,a sort of tempter as you say
dave
03-11-2006, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Actually forget everything I said, I don't want people to have cars that are equally good handling to mine, because at the moment, people think I'm a good driver and don't realise it's the car .
.do they? who?
03-11-2006, 06:04 PM
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Right,
Firstly Mike and all others, thanks for your assistance, it is really helpful cos I havent got a clue. I am going to start with the hard to find parts.
I have left a message with Tim in the hope that he has some front hubs. Am I right in thinking all the three door hubs have the adjustability or whatever?
What should I be looking for - not that I dont have a clue and am totally out of my depth or anything!!!!! LOL
JJ
Firstly Mike and all others, thanks for your assistance, it is really helpful cos I havent got a clue. I am going to start with the hard to find parts.
I have left a message with Tim in the hope that he has some front hubs. Am I right in thinking all the three door hubs have the adjustability or whatever?
What should I be looking for - not that I dont have a clue and am totally out of my depth or anything!!!!! LOL
JJ
06-11-2006, 08:30 AM
#22
Originally Posted by banhambuilt
thanks for that mike
yes it has all cossie bits bolted onto the frame
is it something you carry in stock?
do you have any pic`s,always nice to see what i need to buy,a sort of tempter as you say
dave
yes it has all cossie bits bolted onto the frame
is it something you carry in stock?
do you have any pic`s,always nice to see what i need to buy,a sort of tempter as you say
dave
.
Originally Posted by JjCoDeX75
Right,
Firstly Mike and all others, thanks for your assistance, it is really helpful cos I havent got a clue. I am going to start with the hard to find parts.
I have left a message with Tim in the hope that he has some front hubs. Am I right in thinking all the three door hubs have the adjustability or whatever?
What should I be looking for - not that I dont have a clue and am totally out of my depth or anything!!!!! LOL
JJ
Firstly Mike and all others, thanks for your assistance, it is really helpful cos I havent got a clue. I am going to start with the hard to find parts.
I have left a message with Tim in the hope that he has some front hubs. Am I right in thinking all the three door hubs have the adjustability or whatever?
What should I be looking for - not that I dont have a clue and am totally out of my depth or anything!!!!! LOL
JJ
.
I would have gone spares day at donny next week but already got plans.
06-11-2006, 03:44 PM
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Doh! Donny is about one million million miles from where I am!
If anyone is going from the Devon area, let me know!! LOL
In the meantime, I will need to continue suffering with understeer.
JJ
If anyone is going from the Devon area, let me know!! LOL
In the meantime, I will need to continue suffering with understeer.
JJ
06-11-2006, 11:12 PM
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OKay
Given that the hubs are going to be ni-on impossible to source (and that as per usual TF just doesnt respond to my mail), what is the alternative.
I dont really understand the difference between the two. Any one able to show photos etc. Does the lack of these make doing the rest pointless? Surely there needs to be a better solutoin thatn relying on rare parts
JJ
Given that the hubs are going to be ni-on impossible to source (and that as per usual TF just doesnt respond to my mail), what is the alternative.
I dont really understand the difference between the two. Any one able to show photos etc. Does the lack of these make doing the rest pointless? Surely there needs to be a better solutoin thatn relying on rare parts
JJ
06-11-2006, 11:25 PM
#27
Brom used to (and may still) sell "roll centre correctors" to fit to 2wd or 4x4 hubs to replicate the 3dr hubs - they are 1 inch approx spacers that fit between the TCA and the hub carrier. May be of use to you if you can't find any 3dr hubs.
I bought a set of 3dr hubs off Tim via ebay for about £52 a couple of months ago, to give you an indication of price (and make you jealous). I haven't fitted them yet, and I've got a spare 2wd hub knocking aroud, so I'll try to take a photo tomorrow, and a photo of the "roll centre correctors" that I've also got knocking around.
I bought a set of 3dr hubs off Tim via ebay for about £52 a couple of months ago, to give you an indication of price (and make you jealous). I haven't fitted them yet, and I've got a spare 2wd hub knocking aroud, so I'll try to take a photo tomorrow, and a photo of the "roll centre correctors" that I've also got knocking around.
07-11-2006, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lamb chops
Try Gary at RS Cosworth breakers im sure he will have some 3door hubs. wont be cheap though 
Gold Star for that man!!!!!
Gary has indeed got a set, that I now own! So next step - adjustable TCA's.... ~
Is this something you sell Mike?
In the meantime, I look forward to putting the hubs neatly next to the other unfinished projects, including the coilpack conversion pmsl!
JJ
07-11-2006, 04:26 PM
#33
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great thread!
interesting about the compression struts Mike, i had to ditch the roll bar as it wouldn't clear the v8 bellhousing, the car suffers badly from body roll (i'm sure the extra weight is a factor) i was considering higher poundage springs (on my konis) so are you saying fitting and arb back on will give much better results?
interesting about the compression struts Mike, i had to ditch the roll bar as it wouldn't clear the v8 bellhousing, the car suffers badly from body roll (i'm sure the extra weight is a factor) i was considering higher poundage springs (on my konis) so are you saying fitting and arb back on will give much better results?
08-11-2006, 07:47 AM
#34
Originally Posted by Mike1
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Do NOT use the roll centre adjusters, they are not strong enough.
Originally Posted by JjCoDeX75
So next step - adjustable TCA's.... ~
Is this something you sell Mike?
JJ
Is this something you sell Mike?
JJ
.
Originally Posted by Doh
great thread!
interesting about the compression struts Mike, i had to ditch the roll bar as it wouldn't clear the v8 bellhousing, the car suffers badly from body roll (i'm sure the extra weight is a factor) i was considering higher poundage springs (on my konis) so are you saying fitting and arb back on will give much better results?
interesting about the compression struts Mike, i had to ditch the roll bar as it wouldn't clear the v8 bellhousing, the car suffers badly from body roll (i'm sure the extra weight is a factor) i was considering higher poundage springs (on my konis) so are you saying fitting and arb back on will give much better results?
08-11-2006, 07:56 AM
#35
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Hi Mike
PM me (or post here if you prefer) the price of the TCA's when you have worked it out chap!
All note that I have cunningly overlooked Mikes sensible advice to do the rear first in favour of the cheaper front end bits!
Some people you just cant help 
JJ
PM me (or post here if you prefer) the price of the TCA's when you have worked it out chap!
All note that I have cunningly overlooked Mikes sensible advice to do the rear first in favour of the cheaper front end bits!
Some people you just cant help
JJ
12-11-2006, 09:14 AM
#36
PassionFord Post Troll
Here is some info that people might find interesting on the changes from 3-door to Sapphire 2wd made by Ford.
Obviously the 4-dr shell was stiffer which has to be taken into account.
Spring rates went up from 106 to 118lb/in at the front and 263 to 286 lb/in at the back.
Damper rates were made softer in bump and stiffer in rebound.
ARB was increased to 16mm on back
Castor increased by over one degree
Camber made fractionally more negative
Kingpin inclination made slightly greater.
Front knuckles re-designed to lower the front roll centre from 144mm to 70mm
Work was also done to rid the tendency of the 3-door to "pitch" front to rear.
Much of the work above was done to create a less "nervous" car and for it to have better straight line stability
Hope that's interesting
Obviously the 4-dr shell was stiffer which has to be taken into account.
Spring rates went up from 106 to 118lb/in at the front and 263 to 286 lb/in at the back.
Damper rates were made softer in bump and stiffer in rebound.
ARB was increased to 16mm on back
Castor increased by over one degree
Camber made fractionally more negative
Kingpin inclination made slightly greater.
Front knuckles re-designed to lower the front roll centre from 144mm to 70mm
Work was also done to rid the tendency of the 3-door to "pitch" front to rear.
Much of the work above was done to create a less "nervous" car and for it to have better straight line stability
Hope that's interesting
06-03-2007, 06:02 PM
#37
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I wanted to bump this thread cos it answers a lot of questions on this subject that are being raised, and to save Mikes fingers, so as to speak.
As an update....
Thanks to Mike for the adjustable TCAs still saving for the rear....
JJ
As an update....
Thanks to Mike for the adjustable TCAs still saving for the rear....
JJ
