dombloke

I'm planning on getting a track day car along with my brother in law. We want a car that we can use on the road for a while and then to use on track only, so will be towed/trailered to tracks.

We still have to finalise the budget, but I am wondering whether a bog 2.0 would be a good starting point or should I increase the budget to get an ST170?

What are the pros and cons to both? Is the St170 easily tunable or can the 2.0 be modified for less money to give more power? Would the St170 be good to use straight out of the box?

Has anyone got any idea to how much things costs to modify?
i.e. engine, brakes, exhaust, seats, rollcage? etc

3dr or 5dr?

Any info and or opinions would be great. I'm sure these questions have already been asked, I have searched the web but I want people to answer the questions that I want answering, with current knowledge and ideas.

Thanks in advance


Dom

XR2

ST170 3dr. Better cylinder head and comes with 6-speed. Just drop the dual stake intake manifold and the VCT.

Or you use the Duratec-HE engine. This has more tuning potential than the old Zetec-E

dombloke

sounds like the way that i want to go... need to convince the brother in law to shell out the extra cash.

What cars would I find the duratec HE in?

XR2

Fiesta ST, Focus MK2, Mondeo MK3, C-Max MK1 etc.

RichieST

iTrader: (2)

Duratec HE are in Mk3 mondeos and Fiesta ST's. If it's a budget build, I'd go for a 2.0 focus, strip it and go have some fun. When it breaks parts are much cheaper and modifications will be cheaper £ per BHP.

If you've got more money to spend then ST170 with a set of throttle bodies. They are dog slow and unreliable with the VVT and dual stage inlet.

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

I would go for the normal 2.0 Zetec. Cheaper to pick up a rough one, easier and cheaper to tune, but still good enough to be entertaining enough out of the box and with basic handling and breathing mods.

dombloke

If I was to go down the 2.0 zetec route or the Duratec HE, how much cash would I need to spend, to get power up similar levels to the St170

How much do Duratec engines go for?

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't go chasing figures.

Go down the Zetec route and get it handling nicely first. It won't be far behind an ST170 on Tarmac which is far more important than paper figures.

Upgrade it gradually then when you want a power hike go down the Jenvey route and stick to a drivable 180bhp IMO.

Unless you want to go down the turbo route, then the Zetec is ideal, and power is only ever going to be limited by your budget.

But I like NA track cars unless you're chasing records.

Madgit

I'd go F4R engine personally and keep the car it's already in.

hogdog

2.0, cheaper, simpler, more reliable, better gearbox and with some suspension tweaks you won't miss the extra power.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

great advice

dombloke

Thanks for the advice. The 2 litre route sounds like fun, which will please my brother in law and his pocket.

What are your thoughts on getting the haddling sorted? what would you do?

CrOwSoN15

Again, hugely depends on your budget. You could stick some lowering springs on it as the first step, or you could get a spring and damper kit, which is the way I'd be going.

A sticky set of tyres, and get the geometry set up nicely, and you'll be on to a winner.

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

I'd go for simple upgrades first, the simpler the better and ease yourself in.

The brakes will take a hammering, so stick some uprated pads in, maybe some uprated OEM fitments discs or at least make sure what's in there are in good condition.

Also make sure you have four matching tyres and that they're all in good shape. If they're not or they're ditchfinders, change them for something decent.

Make sure your tracking is sorted.

Then take it on track then you should be able to make your own mind up on what can be improved. A set of Eibach springs are a good, cheap mod, but if you're serious and want to go that far then coilovers are always good if set up right. Then there's ARB's, polybushes etc etc etc, all depends on how far you want to go.

And you can go as far as you like with brakes, no shortage of big brake kit options, but ST170 brakes would be a budget upgrade with uprated pads etc or keep your eye on eBay for Focud RS Brembos or other cheap OEM Brembos getting sold. Or K-Sport do good, but cheaper BBK's.

Then look at lightweight wheels to reduce unsprung weight.

After that it gets serious, but that's up to you whether you want to go down that road or not. You'd have a very decent track car by then.

But from day one strip out as much weight as you can. That's free and easy and shedding weight is equal to gaining power.

hogdog

Some decent coilovers (AP's are good for the money but perhaps a little too soft for the track so KW's or Eibachs if you can afford them) and the ST170 front brake set up, it's fairly cheap to get hold of and 300mm discs are excellent (You'll need at least 16" wheels). Thicker anti roll bars from Eibach or H&R will help keep it flat in the corners, add some sticky tyres and strip it out and you'll have a surprisingly fast car.

dombloke

Do the RS and ST170 use the same hubs as the standard car?

hogdog

Nope, you'll need the ST170 hub knuckles for the ST170 brake conversion.

Don't even contemplate doing the RS conversion, it's a friggin nightmare.

dombloke

Whats so difficult about the rs conversion? Can't be that bad...can it?

vroomtshh

I know this is the wrong forum, but for a dedicated track car, why only the choice of two focus's

Lots of better starting points IMO

hogdog

Hehe, looks pretty straight forward but there's a few spacers (or custom made bells) and custom made brackets involved to get it to fit onto the ST170 hubs. There are either just too many compromises made or too much work/expense to fit properly to ST170 hubs IMO.

You can obviously fit them to the RS hub knuckles but they are like rocking horse shit (at least one side is no longer available) and very expensive second hand, they also have a different diameter hole for the strut...There may be other issues too but I don't know of anyone who's attempted it.

The only person I know that's done it says it messes up the brake balance too and overall wasn't worth the effort.

dombloke

There are several reasons why I'm considering the Focus's. I've owned them in the past as a part time trader and have found them to be quite reliable and also parts are fairly cheap.

The car when it was developed was aimed at the 'drivers' market. Ford sucessfully built a car that went well round corners which a class leading ride.

The other reason for the Focus is that there are loads to choose from and 'cos it's a Ford, you can pick them up quite cheap.

I was reading the other week that modern Ford engines are designed not to lose their power for 150,000 miles, I don't know if this includes late 90's cars but it inspires confidence.

Anyway Vroomtshh what would you recommend, you may as well open the can of worms fully. I'm open to suggestions

dombloke

Hotdog, I think I might ditch the RS brake conversion. A new set of discs with some better pads might be the way to go initially.

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

Focus is a perfectly good basis for a track car. The Zetec engine is perfect, it's a good chassis and they handle very nicely. All improved when weight is shed from them accompanied with a few choice mods, especially on the handling side.

The Clio 172 is probably the most popular choice of track car right now as it's cheap and goes and handles well as standard. It's a smaller, lighter car and you'll get about 40bhp more as standard over a 2.0 Focus, but as said previously it's best not to chase figures, just build something that you're happy with. A lightened, sorted 140bhp 2.0 Focus (allowing for a few basic, cheap mods) will go really nicely on track and can be evolved from there.

dombloke

Mike C, the Clio 172 would be nice if we had the budget for it and was considered. I thought the Focus had 130bhp

dombloke

I have just looked at the prices of clio's and they do seem quite cheap, I might put them back onto the list...

coxyboi

Hi well the st has a good brake and suspension set up. Would make a good starting point or cheap upgrade,
The st engine will work well with fly wheel, decat, exhaust cam pully, under drive kit. Remove aircon, remap. Weight strip, will give u a fast responsive st near 200 brake with good torque, might get more with race can injectors and fuel pump.dif. Then it gets pricey
But if you want more the 2l may be best bet, and add st bits like the down pipe, brakes,

ShiftyOldScoob

iTrader: (3)

One of the best all round cars I've driven over the years was my 2.0 focus ESP....It wasn't fast but what it lacked in speed, it more than made up for in handling!

Fantastic through the bends, really inspired a lot of confidence.

They can be picked up for about a grand now for a high miler and if the engine pops, 200 quid from the local scrappy will see you back out on track.

When I had mine, the best mod I did and probs the cheapest was to fit a front strut brace. Sounds daft but it sharpened things up no end and the handling was good already! Couple this with 25mm lowering springs and it's a lovely set up, trust me, you won't get bored of flinging it round corners

Other cheap options are exhaust, manifold and filter. None will see massive gains but they will allow the engine to breath easier and sharpen up throttle response.

As for brakes, I found the standard set up adequate on the road but I would look at, at least changing the pads as a cheap option for you to get out there and get a feel for the car.

As mentioned above by a few people, a good set of matching tires will help out no end!

Have you also considered a b16 honda civic? or if you can find one thats had a b18 conversion.

Was never a fan until I drove the b16 I'm about to buy....basically its a sub 1000kg car with an exhaust, manifold, integra cams,integra suspension and a filter. It's putting out 181bhp and its a fooking rocket!

Buying it purely to take it to croft a couple of times this year....I had originally considered another ESP though but this was cheap as chips for what it is.

All for £1500 quid

Madgit

Now I know I poked my stick to stir the pot before and fair enough if you really want a Focus then go for it but there are plenty of other better track cars that you can get for similar money. There are plenty of threads on here about track cars where people have suggested things. Don't get me wrong I was brought up with Fords and I do love them but just have a look at other cars first before you make up your mind. You would have to spend a lot of money to get a Focus to perform as well as other cars out there.

dombloke

Madgit, I'm open to suggestions, give me your thoughts

dombloke

Perhaps I should get my mk2 golf gti 8v running again, needs the bottom end rebuilding...would that be a better car to start with?

Madgit

Like I said, it's entirely your choice but to get a standardish Focus to perform anything like other cars, then you're looking at spending quite a bit. You can pick up any of the following for similar money and better equipped out the box. Obviously I'm going to say Clio 172 but others include Peugeot Gtis especially 306 Gti6, Golfs, MR2, MX5, BMW 3 Series, they all would basically just need a brake upgrade then ready to roll. To get any Focus to be better than a 172 or a 306 Gti6 you're looking at nothing less than an RS Model or equivalent performing i.e. highly modified lesser model. In my list you should pick up something suitable for AND basic track prep mods for about £1250-£1500. Mine was £1400 for the car then just done Brembo discs, Ferodo DS 2500 pads, braided lines and dot 5.1 fluid. Job done. Can get a 172 from £1k. As I said before I love Fords but there are more suitable alternatives out there.

Madgit

Quite simply - yes. But sure the die hards will say otherwise. Far lighter for starters.

coxyboi

Its all to taste. So choice is urs
All cars have good and bad the focus handles very well, the st is great and is well ballanced, but is a heavy bird. The engine is a good all rounder good power from 2000rpm

coxyboi

If you was still thinking 2l the st exhaust is a must, and recomend the st springs and new st shocks about £40each, the st roll bar is slightly stronger, the st brakes would be a must, less weight, light flywheel will liven it u, this would give a good base to play with untill you know ur style and what you,d like to inprove on

Straight_4_N/a

focus 2.0 zetec 109hp 112lb/ft (@the wheels)
focus 2.0 st170 125hp 113lb/ft (@the wheels) (depending on engines con)

Thay are real world powers and the st loses most of its power due to its crapy gearbox, so realy theres not much power diffrence.


well put it this way for power before i got my engine i had a choice between the st170 lump and the std zetec-e lump gusse which ive got the zetec-e std and which for less than £1500 (inc cost of engine) its going to have more bhp more torque rev much faster and have alot less tranmisson loss making for a better track day engine. for modding the st170 engine its not really the fact you have to upgrade it, its more of correct the engine mods for did (which anit cheap) first off you have to lose the ecu cams inlet manifold flywheel (thay blow up and take the gearbox with them) gearbox and add a fuel line which then thay make over 200bhp and it will be a happy engine.

well for the cost of things like i think im lucky ive paid less than a £1000 for a rolling shell roll cage bucket seats full st170 brakes uprated suspension (just uprated shocks and springs not coilovers) a full exhaust system and engine, cost would be £600 for the roll cage £200 each for the seats £400 for brakes £250 for suspension £700 for exhaust system and £100 to £300 for engine (100 std 300 for st)

Chris69

I'd say go for the 2litre model as you can quite easily add the best bits from the ST170 from a tracktoy point of view.
such as the brakes and airbox/air/feed.
with a decent exhuast, springs/dampers and maybe a nice remap the 2litre car will be at least on pace with a ST170.
As mentioned above as well most other parts will be cheaper/easier to get hold of and the 2litre standard engine has a lot of tuning options should you want to go further be it turbo or or n/a tuning.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If you havent got 1200 quid for a half decent 172 you're going to really struggle to build anything.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Despite the stupid scene image and idiots with "got lowz" etc all copying the VW scene the actual cars honda make are good and the engines are excellent.

As you say, the B18 in particular is an amazing engine, especially considering it comes with a limited slip diff as standard.

Buy a lightweight hatch civic and put the b18 in it and some half decent brakes and suspension and you have a little weapon, but I still reckon just get a clio 172, do basically nothing to it, enjoy it for a while, and you can always sell it on later and buy something else when you have more cash for a project.

I dont think 172's make good project cars, they are 8/10 from the box as a trackday car, but getting them that last little bit is stupidly expensive. Its getting more power from them that is the issue, especially considering the gearbox is weak and LSD's are expensive.

coxyboi

In gen 3 door cars are lighter, and better for roll cages, small hatches are quick but handle differently, loved the xr2i, cvh
St handles well at standard hight doesn't need to be slammed on the deck so can be used on different tracks, the lsd for the 2l and st are 600 to 700, the fly wheels are about the same with clutch, st shock's 40 each eibach springs about 130 only slightly stiffer and lower than the st, the st down pipe is near as good as it gets from brakers. With brakes

coxyboi

Also avoid the ford esp its a pain and it slows the car down,
And its not the peek power that matters its the power curve the more power you can get in the 4000 to 6000 range the better